4 ms·

I'm really sorry you feel that way. I dont even disagree that this BS exists, but it is almost nonexistent in my world. Just to say this is not the lesson the

by onli 4y ago

I'm really sorry you feel that way. I dont even disagree that this BS exists, but it is almost nonexistent in my world. Just to say this is not the lesson the students have to learn.

Dalewyn 4y ago
It's good that students learn this lesson now than later. Right now they get to learn these lessons with no skin off their backs. They're kids, most of the stuff they do is of no consequence one way or another. Once they enter the real world and the workforce, they get to learn these lessons with prices ranging from reprimands to terminations. Hardly a fun thing to go through.
- paulluuk 4y ago
  People have been using this argument against me since I was a child: "this is good for you because the big bad world will crush you", but frankly I thought it was nonsense back then and I still do. The world is not filled with teacher-type people who will crush you for breaking rules. The world is filled with people who want to get things done, and know that the rules are only there to facilitate getting things done. If the rules get in the way to getting things done, they are ignored.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    I see someone doesn't actually have to follow any legal regulations in their line of work. After your 12th hour straight in an IT call with a bank trying to fix a simple issue multiple compliance officers are on the call all fighting each other, you come to realize the nightmare teacher types do exist.
    - welshwelsh 4y ago
      If you ignore the legal regulations that don't make sense, maybe you'll get fired and end up working at a better job that doesn't have those regulations. If enough people ignore the regulations, they'll become unenforceable. It's always a good thing to break rules you don't like.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        Ah yes, who likes those pesky robbery and murder laws anyhow?
    - agos 4y ago
      I'm pretty confident that the school was not going for this angle
  - LocalH 4y ago
    The world is filled with both types of people. There are absolutely people who will crush you for breaking rules, for the sake of enforcing the rules, regardless of validity.
  - HowTheStoryEnds 4y ago
    Depends on the work bubble you're in, I've definitely seen places where following asinine rules tempted getting shit done because of the power of gave the enforcer and the disconnect they had themselves from the results of success. Mostly.gov but some private places that are big enough without true oversight as well
- aurbano 4y ago
  We should foster a world full of people who use their brains to interpret rules. If we're going to blindly do something because "it's the exact rule written here" then we might as well replace all decision makers with an AI that never interprets anything. Their teacher was wrong for not interpreting the rules correctly - everyone's aware of that. On top of that the people writing those rules were wrong as well for either assuming that teachers would interpret them correctly, or not being more explicit when writing them. It's a competition that includes writing code as a team: one of the main things you'd want them to do is to use git and thus a website like Github.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    >or not being more explicit when writing them. You really can't get anymore explicit than "sites that generate HTML from text ... such as ... GitHub ... are NOT permitted." They even emphasized the "NOT" in "NOT permitted" to try and drive the point home for the particularly dense: You are not allowed to use Github, and all the others, period. Is excluding Github okay? If you ask me, that question is irrelevant. The contest is about making a website by hand, nothing more and nothing less. This is an artificial environment and situation, and you either accept the rules and play by them or don't accept them and go elsewhere. Incidentally, if you really, really want to use Github in spite of the rules forbidding you: You can just as easily do all your work on Github, even get Github to generate the HTML for you, then take all the results and upload it onto some web hosting server and just not mention you used Github anywhere. Nobody would be the wiser and you successfully broke the rules you found so objectional (read: cheated, but nobody will know).
    - richbell 4y ago
      > You really can't get anymore explicit than "sites that generate HTML from text ... such as ... GitHub ... are NOT permitted." > Is excluding Github okay? If you ask me, that question is irrelevant. The contest is about making a website by hand, nothing more and nothing less. This is an artificial environment and situation, and you either accept the rules and play by them or don't accept them and go elsewhere. It's not irrelevant: it's the crux of the issue. The rule was clearly written by someone that lacks in-depth technical skills and is nonsensical. Ask yourself: would they have been disqualified if they used GitLab? Saying "oh well that's the rules" is an awful attitude and does not prepare people for the "real world". The real world is full of people who have absolutely no idea what they're doing and like to swing around their authority. If you aren't able or willing to correct demands from people who are blatantly incompetent in a low stakes high-school competition, you're not going to have a valuable or fulfilling career.
- FredPret 4y ago
  Perhaps this is adequate encouragement for them NOT to join the work force? Why is being an employee and following arbitrary rules set by less intelligent people than oneself the default way to be a productive citizen? Smart kids should start a business, and when this inevitably fails, try again. We no longer need an army of rule-worshippers like during the industrial revolution. Learning to reconcile oneself to repeated business failure is psychologically easier and much more valuable to society than becoming a cubicle dweller.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    "Workforce" applies to both employers and employees, and employers are still beholden to regulations, contracts, and other requirements mandated from customers and regulatory bodies.
    - FredPret 4y ago
      Rule-following constitutes probably less than 1% of what most entrepreneurs do. Furthermore, mindless rule-following played a rule in essentially every bad human-caused historical event. Even in checklist-heavy professions like air transport, lots of emphasis is placed on interrogating and understanding those rules thoroughly. I mean even lawyers, the profession that’s ABOUT rules, talk all day long anout the interpretation of and reason for each rule. The key to the future is people who take ownership of problems, rather than rigidly offloading all cognition to a list of diktats concocted by someone of dubious ability.

by onli 4y ago

I'm really sorry you feel that way. I dont even disagree that this BS exists, but it is almost nonexistent in my world. Just to say this is not the lesson the students have to learn.

Dalewyn 4y ago

It's good that students learn this lesson now than later. Right now they get to learn these lessons with no skin off their backs. They're kids, most of the stuff they do is of no consequence one way or another. Once they enter the real world and the workforce, they get to learn these lessons with prices ranging from reprimands to terminations. Hardly a fun thing to go through.

paulluuk 4y ago
People have been using this argument against me since I was a child: "this is good for you because the big bad world will crush you", but frankly I thought it was nonsense back then and I still do. The world is not filled with teacher-type people who will crush you for breaking rules. The world is filled with people who want to get things done, and know that the rules are only there to facilitate getting things done. If the rules get in the way to getting things done, they are ignored.
- pixl97 4y ago
  I see someone doesn't actually have to follow any legal regulations in their line of work. After your 12th hour straight in an IT call with a bank trying to fix a simple issue multiple compliance officers are on the call all fighting each other, you come to realize the nightmare teacher types do exist.
  - welshwelsh 4y ago
    If you ignore the legal regulations that don't make sense, maybe you'll get fired and end up working at a better job that doesn't have those regulations. If enough people ignore the regulations, they'll become unenforceable. It's always a good thing to break rules you don't like.
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      Ah yes, who likes those pesky robbery and murder laws anyhow?
  - agos 4y ago
    I'm pretty confident that the school was not going for this angle
- LocalH 4y ago
  The world is filled with both types of people. There are absolutely people who will crush you for breaking rules, for the sake of enforcing the rules, regardless of validity.
- HowTheStoryEnds 4y ago
  Depends on the work bubble you're in, I've definitely seen places where following asinine rules tempted getting shit done because of the power of gave the enforcer and the disconnect they had themselves from the results of success. Mostly.gov but some private places that are big enough without true oversight as well
aurbano 4y ago
We should foster a world full of people who use their brains to interpret rules. If we're going to blindly do something because "it's the exact rule written here" then we might as well replace all decision makers with an AI that never interprets anything. Their teacher was wrong for not interpreting the rules correctly - everyone's aware of that. On top of that the people writing those rules were wrong as well for either assuming that teachers would interpret them correctly, or not being more explicit when writing them. It's a competition that includes writing code as a team: one of the main things you'd want them to do is to use git and thus a website like Github.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >or not being more explicit when writing them. You really can't get anymore explicit than "sites that generate HTML from text ... such as ... GitHub ... are NOT permitted." They even emphasized the "NOT" in "NOT permitted" to try and drive the point home for the particularly dense: You are not allowed to use Github, and all the others, period. Is excluding Github okay? If you ask me, that question is irrelevant. The contest is about making a website by hand, nothing more and nothing less. This is an artificial environment and situation, and you either accept the rules and play by them or don't accept them and go elsewhere. Incidentally, if you really, really want to use Github in spite of the rules forbidding you: You can just as easily do all your work on Github, even get Github to generate the HTML for you, then take all the results and upload it onto some web hosting server and just not mention you used Github anywhere. Nobody would be the wiser and you successfully broke the rules you found so objectional (read: cheated, but nobody will know).
  - richbell 4y ago
    > You really can't get anymore explicit than "sites that generate HTML from text ... such as ... GitHub ... are NOT permitted." > Is excluding Github okay? If you ask me, that question is irrelevant. The contest is about making a website by hand, nothing more and nothing less. This is an artificial environment and situation, and you either accept the rules and play by them or don't accept them and go elsewhere. It's not irrelevant: it's the crux of the issue. The rule was clearly written by someone that lacks in-depth technical skills and is nonsensical. Ask yourself: would they have been disqualified if they used GitLab? Saying "oh well that's the rules" is an awful attitude and does not prepare people for the "real world". The real world is full of people who have absolutely no idea what they're doing and like to swing around their authority. If you aren't able or willing to correct demands from people who are blatantly incompetent in a low stakes high-school competition, you're not going to have a valuable or fulfilling career.
FredPret 4y ago
Perhaps this is adequate encouragement for them NOT to join the work force? Why is being an employee and following arbitrary rules set by less intelligent people than oneself the default way to be a productive citizen? Smart kids should start a business, and when this inevitably fails, try again. We no longer need an army of rule-worshippers like during the industrial revolution. Learning to reconcile oneself to repeated business failure is psychologically easier and much more valuable to society than becoming a cubicle dweller.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  "Workforce" applies to both employers and employees, and employers are still beholden to regulations, contracts, and other requirements mandated from customers and regulatory bodies.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    Rule-following constitutes probably less than 1% of what most entrepreneurs do. Furthermore, mindless rule-following played a rule in essentially every bad human-caused historical event. Even in checklist-heavy professions like air transport, lots of emphasis is placed on interrogating and understanding those rules thoroughly. I mean even lawyers, the profession that’s ABOUT rules, talk all day long anout the interpretation of and reason for each rule. The key to the future is people who take ownership of problems, rather than rigidly offloading all cognition to a list of diktats concocted by someone of dubious ability.