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> I know, I inherited an iPad 2 that was lying around in a drawer. This machine is way less useful than what it could be because of its ancient Safari version.

> I know, I inherited an iPad 2 that was lying around in a drawer. This machine is way less useful than what it could be because of its ancient Safari version. That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month. Plus the OS wouldn't have gotten security updates. Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? > This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third. This priority list tends to crop up often when complaining about Apple's developer tools and/or (lack of) documentation. It's something one tends to hear alongside complaints like "I like Swift the language, but the compiler crashes all the frigging time" on the Apple-developer podcasts I listen to.

jraph 4y ago
> That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. > Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? There are still plenty of useful things you can do without logging in. But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. >> This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. > It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third Okay, thanks for the context, I didn't know that.
- adiabatty 4y ago
  > I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. Microsoft doesn't even support Windows 7 anymore. I wouldn't recommend anyone use an OS that isn't getting security updates. > But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. I'm not sure if Apple is lifting a finger to help, but https://asahilinux.org https://asahilinux.org is a thing. I'm less than convinced Linux people want to bother, in large numbers, to install Linux on devices that were insanely RAM-constrained until only very recently, when Apple started putting M1 and M2 chips in its iPads. For all I know, there are additional patent minefields around implementing Linux drivers for iPads' hardware. The only other thing that I can think of that would incentivize them to actively block alternate-OS development is security. If someone else can install a backdoor host OS and then stick iOS on top of it before selling the phone to you, that's a way to compromise a Real Computer that usually isn't possible with an iOS device. > The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. Apple will _happily_ buy old iPads for a pittance (or $0.00) and reuse the gold and aluminum and whatnot in it. Because of that, I'm not quite as moved by the anti-e-waste arguments that pop up in discussions of rapidly-advancing hardware. That said, an iPad 2, which pre-dates Retina support on iPads, is going to be slow and RAM-constrained, and anyone who decides to support hardware that old ten years later is going to be in for a world of hurt. As an aside, one of the ways in which Apple actually helps its developers is by dropping iOS/iPadOS/watchOS support for old, slower hardware, basically giving developers license to require newer versions of the operating system and/or newer hardware models for newer versions of their apps. I listen to <https://www.relay.fm/radar https://www.relay.fm/radar>, and the sighs of relief that David Smith, the watch-app guy, breathes when the old slow watch model gets phased out are palpable even at 1.3x speed.
  - jraph 4y ago
    >> I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. > Microsoft doesn't even support Windows 7 anymore. I wouldn't recommend anyone use an OS that isn't getting security updates. I mentioned Windows because you mentioned it, but I would not neither. You can install an up-to-date Linux distro on any computer that ran Windows 7 or 8 though. > I'm not sure if Apple is lifting a finger to help, but https://asahilinux.org https://asahilinux.org is a thing. I was only speaking about iOS devices. Apple Desktop/Laptops have a better story on this. > Apple will _happily_ buy old iPads for a pittance (or $0.00) and reuse the gold and aluminum and whatnot in it Apple's handling of e-waste is not exactly great [1]. Anyway, recycling is way more costly than just being able to use hardware that exists. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... > Apple released its Environmental Responsibility Report Wednesday, an annual grandstanding effort that the company uses to position itself as a progressive, environmentally friendly company. Behind the scenes, though, the company undermines attempts to prolong the lifespan of its products. [...] > Apple rejects current industry best practices by forcing the recyclers it works with to shred iPhones and MacBooks so they cannot be repaired or reused—instead, they are turned into tiny shards of metal and glass. > As an aside, one of the ways in which Apple actually helps its developers is by dropping iOS/iPadOS/watchOS support for old, slower hardware, basically giving developers license to require newer versions of the operating system and/or newer hardware models But that's not a good thing! Saying this as a dev, we ought to spend effort not to turn working hardware into waste because it's more convenient.

jraph 4y ago

> That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. > Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? There are still plenty of useful things you can do without logging in. But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. >> This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. > It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third Okay, thanks for the context, I didn't know that.

adiabatty 4y ago
> I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. Microsoft doesn't even support Windows 7 anymore. I wouldn't recommend anyone use an OS that isn't getting security updates. > But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. I'm not sure if Apple is lifting a finger to help, but https://asahilinux.org https://asahilinux.org is a thing. I'm less than convinced Linux people want to bother, in large numbers, to install Linux on devices that were insanely RAM-constrained until only very recently, when Apple started putting M1 and M2 chips in its iPads. For all I know, there are additional patent minefields around implementing Linux drivers for iPads' hardware. The only other thing that I can think of that would incentivize them to actively block alternate-OS development is security. If someone else can install a backdoor host OS and then stick iOS on top of it before selling the phone to you, that's a way to compromise a Real Computer that usually isn't possible with an iOS device. > The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. Apple will _happily_ buy old iPads for a pittance (or $0.00) and reuse the gold and aluminum and whatnot in it. Because of that, I'm not quite as moved by the anti-e-waste arguments that pop up in discussions of rapidly-advancing hardware. That said, an iPad 2, which pre-dates Retina support on iPads, is going to be slow and RAM-constrained, and anyone who decides to support hardware that old ten years later is going to be in for a world of hurt. As an aside, one of the ways in which Apple actually helps its developers is by dropping iOS/iPadOS/watchOS support for old, slower hardware, basically giving developers license to require newer versions of the operating system and/or newer hardware models for newer versions of their apps. I listen to <https://www.relay.fm/radar https://www.relay.fm/radar>, and the sighs of relief that David Smith, the watch-app guy, breathes when the old slow watch model gets phased out are palpable even at 1.3x speed.
- jraph 4y ago
  >> I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. > Microsoft doesn't even support Windows 7 anymore. I wouldn't recommend anyone use an OS that isn't getting security updates. I mentioned Windows because you mentioned it, but I would not neither. You can install an up-to-date Linux distro on any computer that ran Windows 7 or 8 though. > I'm not sure if Apple is lifting a finger to help, but https://asahilinux.org https://asahilinux.org is a thing. I was only speaking about iOS devices. Apple Desktop/Laptops have a better story on this. > Apple will _happily_ buy old iPads for a pittance (or $0.00) and reuse the gold and aluminum and whatnot in it Apple's handling of e-waste is not exactly great [1]. Anyway, recycling is way more costly than just being able to use hardware that exists. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... > Apple released its Environmental Responsibility Report Wednesday, an annual grandstanding effort that the company uses to position itself as a progressive, environmentally friendly company. Behind the scenes, though, the company undermines attempts to prolong the lifespan of its products. [...] > Apple rejects current industry best practices by forcing the recyclers it works with to shred iPhones and MacBooks so they cannot be repaired or reused—instead, they are turned into tiny shards of metal and glass. > As an aside, one of the ways in which Apple actually helps its developers is by dropping iOS/iPadOS/watchOS support for old, slower hardware, basically giving developers license to require newer versions of the operating system and/or newer hardware models But that's not a good thing! Saying this as a dev, we ought to spend effort not to turn working hardware into waste because it's more convenient.