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> They just put their users ahead of developers Users can go fuck themselves the day Apple decides to stop supporting hardware they bought but still prevent ot

by jraph 4y ago

> They just put their users ahead of developers Users can go fuck themselves the day Apple decides to stop supporting hardware they bought but still prevent other vendors to provide alternative, up-to-date browsers on it. I know, I inherited an iPad 2 that was lying around in a drawer. This machine is way less useful than what it could be because of its ancient Safari version. This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult.

agsnu 4y ago
But on the flip side, Apple provides a much longer support lifespan for iOS devices than Android vendors do. I wouldn’t want to use the latest Chrome on a device running iOS 9 anyway.
- jraph 4y ago
  > Apple provides a much longer support lifespan for iOS devices than Android vendors do True, but for many Android devices, you can install a custom ROM when the vendor decided to stop supporting their product. Still not good enough though, those custom ROMs are usually built using outdated drivers anyway, usually eventually blocked on a given Android version because the kernel can't be upgraded, and it is not trivial to install them. What's more, Apple is a bit better than Android for this, but that's because Android is incredibly bad at it to begin with. Both are pretty bad. The mobile scene is clearly in a bad shape in this respect. We are happy when a mobile device is supported for a few years, but I'm used to being able to run an up-to-date OS on a desktop computer or a laptop for decades, until it dies.
adiabatty 4y ago
> I know, I inherited an iPad 2 that was lying around in a drawer. This machine is way less useful than what it could be because of its ancient Safari version. That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month. Plus the OS wouldn't have gotten security updates. Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? > This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third. This priority list tends to crop up often when complaining about Apple's developer tools and/or (lack of) documentation. It's something one tends to hear alongside complaints like "I like Swift the language, but the compiler crashes all the frigging time" on the Apple-developer podcasts I listen to.
- jraph 4y ago
  > That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. > Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? There are still plenty of useful things you can do without logging in. But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. >> This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. > It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third Okay, thanks for the context, I didn't know that.
  - adiabatty 4y ago
    > I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. Microsoft doesn't even support Windows 7 anymore. I wouldn't recommend anyone use an OS that isn't getting security updates. > But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. I'm not sure if Apple is lifting a finger to help, but https://asahilinux.org https://asahilinux.org is a thing. I'm less than convinced Linux people want to bother, in large numbers, to install Linux on devices that were insanely RAM-constrained until only very recently, when Apple started putting M1 and M2 chips in its iPads. For all I know, there are additional patent minefields around implementing Linux drivers for iPads' hardware. The only other thing that I can think of that would incentivize them to actively block alternate-OS development is security. If someone else can install a backdoor host OS and then stick iOS on top of it before selling the phone to you, that's a way to compromise a Real Computer that usually isn't possible with an iOS device. > The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. Apple will _happily_ buy old iPads for a pittance (or $0.00) and reuse the gold and aluminum and whatnot in it. Because of that, I'm not quite as moved by the anti-e-waste arguments that pop up in discussions of rapidly-advancing hardware. That said, an iPad 2, which pre-dates Retina support on iPads, is going to be slow and RAM-constrained, and anyone who decides to support hardware that old ten years later is going to be in for a world of hurt. As an aside, one of the ways in which Apple actually helps its developers is by dropping iOS/iPadOS/watchOS support for old, slower hardware, basically giving developers license to require newer versions of the operating system and/or newer hardware models for newer versions of their apps. I listen to <https://www.relay.fm/radar https://www.relay.fm/radar>, and the sighs of relief that David Smith, the watch-app guy, breathes when the old slow watch model gets phased out are palpable even at 1.3x speed.
dmitriid 4y ago
iPad 2 is from 2011. Please show me a single device from 2011 that "other vendors" aka Google or even Mozilla support [1]. Not saying it's a good thing, but spite and hatred shouldn't replace facts. [1] Probably apart from desktop. And even there: windows 8 was released in 2012. Chrome droped support for it in 2022, Mozilla will drop support for it this year.
- jraph 4y ago
  Here are your facts, here's your single device: The iPad 2 is blocked on Safari 9, which was released in 2015, only 4 years later. The Samsung Galaxy S II was released in 2011 too [0]. It was running Android 2.3.3, but could be upgraded to Android 4.1.2. The latest Firefox version to support this version of Android, Firefox 68.11.0, was released July 27, 2020, 9 years later. The web is way more usable today on a 2020 browser than on a 2015 browser. And in 2020, the browser was current on this device! But the story does not end there. Today, you can install Lineage 18.1 / Android 11 on this device [1]. To be fair, many things don't work on this port, but there's an official Lineage 14.1 / Android 7 Lineage ROM [2] for this device, last built on 2018, 7 years later, on which current versions of Firefox mobile work, because Firefox supports Android 5 and later [3]. And since it is an official Lineage release, you'd expect the device to work correctly on it. You can have a current browser on this 12 years old device. This is possible because most Android devices are not completely locked out from custom OS development. > Probably apart from desktop But that's my point actually. To be fair, the Galaxy sII is an incredibly lucky device compared to most Android devices (however, iPhones and iPads are also usually compared to the Samsung Galaxy ones). And don't be mistaken, I also strongly dislike Android. A computer bought from 2012 can be upgraded to an up-to-date Linux distribution without any issue. There's nothing fundamental to mobile devices that should prevent this. [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S_II https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S_II [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-galaxy-s-ii-unofficial-android-11-lineageos-18-1/ https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-galaxy-s-ii-unofficia... [2] https://lineageosroms.com/i9100/ https://lineageosroms.com/i9100/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_Android#Platforms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_Android#Platforms
  - 4y ago

by jraph 4y ago

agsnu 4y ago

But on the flip side, Apple provides a much longer support lifespan for iOS devices than Android vendors do. I wouldn’t want to use the latest Chrome on a device running iOS 9 anyway.

jraph 4y ago
> Apple provides a much longer support lifespan for iOS devices than Android vendors do True, but for many Android devices, you can install a custom ROM when the vendor decided to stop supporting their product. Still not good enough though, those custom ROMs are usually built using outdated drivers anyway, usually eventually blocked on a given Android version because the kernel can't be upgraded, and it is not trivial to install them. What's more, Apple is a bit better than Android for this, but that's because Android is incredibly bad at it to begin with. Both are pretty bad. The mobile scene is clearly in a bad shape in this respect. We are happy when a mobile device is supported for a few years, but I'm used to being able to run an up-to-date OS on a desktop computer or a laptop for decades, until it dies.

adiabatty 4y ago

> I know, I inherited an iPad 2 that was lying around in a drawer. This machine is way less useful than what it could be because of its ancient Safari version. That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month. Plus the OS wouldn't have gotten security updates. Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? > This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third. This priority list tends to crop up often when complaining about Apple's developer tools and/or (lack of) documentation. It's something one tends to hear alongside complaints like "I like Swift the language, but the compiler crashes all the frigging time" on the Apple-developer podcasts I listen to.

jraph 4y ago
> That iPad 2 probably pre-dates Windows 8, and Google went and dropped support for Windows 8 just last month I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. > Here's a serious question: what good is a web-browsing device that you wouldn't trust to log in to anything on? There are still plenty of useful things you can do without logging in. But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. >> This is the second time I read this sentence in this thread, it sounds like a cult. > It's a fairly popular meme in Apple-developer circles that Apple prioritizes itself first, users second, and developers third Okay, thanks for the context, I didn't know that.
- adiabatty 4y ago
  > I use Firefox. Windows 7 was out 2 years before the iPad 2 and the latest Firefox supports it. Microsoft doesn't even support Windows 7 anymore. I wouldn't recommend anyone use an OS that isn't getting security updates. > But my counter question would rather be: why don't Apple let people write alternative OSes for its hardware then? You can install an up-to-date Linux distribution on computers from the 90s. The iPad is a popular product, I'm sure there would be enough people interested in building a Linux-based OS for it. I'm not sure if Apple is lifting a finger to help, but https://asahilinux.org https://asahilinux.org is a thing. I'm less than convinced Linux people want to bother, in large numbers, to install Linux on devices that were insanely RAM-constrained until only very recently, when Apple started putting M1 and M2 chips in its iPads. For all I know, there are additional patent minefields around implementing Linux drivers for iPads' hardware. The only other thing that I can think of that would incentivize them to actively block alternate-OS development is security. If someone else can install a backdoor host OS and then stick iOS on top of it before selling the phone to you, that's a way to compromise a Real Computer that usually isn't possible with an iOS device. > The problem is that perfectly good hardware is just getting disposed of instead. An heresy, from an environmental standpoint. Apple will _happily_ buy old iPads for a pittance (or $0.00) and reuse the gold and aluminum and whatnot in it. Because of that, I'm not quite as moved by the anti-e-waste arguments that pop up in discussions of rapidly-advancing hardware. That said, an iPad 2, which pre-dates Retina support on iPads, is going to be slow and RAM-constrained, and anyone who decides to support hardware that old ten years later is going to be in for a world of hurt. As an aside, one of the ways in which Apple actually helps its developers is by dropping iOS/iPadOS/watchOS support for old, slower hardware, basically giving developers license to require newer versions of the operating system and/or newer hardware models for newer versions of their apps. I listen to <https://www.relay.fm/radar https://www.relay.fm/radar>, and the sighs of relief that David Smith, the watch-app guy, breathes when the old slow watch model gets phased out are palpable even at 1.3x speed.

dmitriid 4y ago

iPad 2 is from 2011. Please show me a single device from 2011 that "other vendors" aka Google or even Mozilla support [1]. Not saying it's a good thing, but spite and hatred shouldn't replace facts. [1] Probably apart from desktop. And even there: windows 8 was released in 2012. Chrome droped support for it in 2022, Mozilla will drop support for it this year.

jraph 4y ago
Here are your facts, here's your single device: The iPad 2 is blocked on Safari 9, which was released in 2015, only 4 years later. The Samsung Galaxy S II was released in 2011 too [0]. It was running Android 2.3.3, but could be upgraded to Android 4.1.2. The latest Firefox version to support this version of Android, Firefox 68.11.0, was released July 27, 2020, 9 years later. The web is way more usable today on a 2020 browser than on a 2015 browser. And in 2020, the browser was current on this device! But the story does not end there. Today, you can install Lineage 18.1 / Android 11 on this device [1]. To be fair, many things don't work on this port, but there's an official Lineage 14.1 / Android 7 Lineage ROM [2] for this device, last built on 2018, 7 years later, on which current versions of Firefox mobile work, because Firefox supports Android 5 and later [3]. And since it is an official Lineage release, you'd expect the device to work correctly on it. You can have a current browser on this 12 years old device. This is possible because most Android devices are not completely locked out from custom OS development. > Probably apart from desktop But that's my point actually. To be fair, the Galaxy sII is an incredibly lucky device compared to most Android devices (however, iPhones and iPads are also usually compared to the Samsung Galaxy ones). And don't be mistaken, I also strongly dislike Android. A computer bought from 2012 can be upgraded to an up-to-date Linux distribution without any issue. There's nothing fundamental to mobile devices that should prevent this. [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S_II https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_S_II [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-galaxy-s-ii-unofficial-android-11-lineageos-18-1/ https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-galaxy-s-ii-unofficia... [2] https://lineageosroms.com/i9100/ https://lineageosroms.com/i9100/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_Android#Platforms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_Android#Platforms
- 4y ago