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At some point all I can suggest is "don't work for a liar". Of course that may be easier said than done. The point of my anecdote was to illustrate how Agi

At some point all I can suggest is "don't work for a liar". Of course that may be easier said than done. The point of my anecdote was to illustrate how Agile makes it easier to lie, and makes it difficult for honest people to call out liars. If a manager tells me that the deadline is Wednesday, and the deadline passes without anything bad happening, then he or she looks bad. If a manger estimates a "3", and I estimate a "3", and then it turns out that our definitions of what a "3" is differ, then I look bad, regardless of whether the work was, in reality a "3", a "5", or a "3.1415926". But that doesn't mean that good practices are worse than bad practices! The worst practice of all is a bad practice that masquerades as a good practice. I'd much rather that people be honest and up-front about the deadline (even if it is BS) than try to hide behind some overly complicated poker-game kabuki.

lmm 4y ago
> The point of my anecdote was to illustrate how Agile makes it easier to lie, and makes it difficult for honest people to call out liars. If a manager tells me that the deadline is Wednesday, and the deadline passes without anything bad happening, then he or she looks bad. If a manger estimates a "3", and I estimate a "3", and then it turns out that our definitions of what a "3" is differ, then I look bad. If your manager says they're following agile/scrum and says you took too long on that "3", they're lying and you should call them out; you don't look bad, they do. > I'd much rather that people be honest and up-front about the deadline (even if it is BS) than try to hide behind some overly complicated poker-game kabuki. If you've got a real deadline then be honest about it. But most everyday tasks don't need a deadline; agile isn't about pretending the deadline isn't a deadline, it's about actually not having a deadline.
- quanticle 4y ago
  But most everyday tasks don't need a deadline I think that's the crux of our disagreement. I think most everyday tasks do indeed have a deadline. Even if that task specifically doesn't have a deadline, it's often in service of a broader task which does. The premise that all agile methodologies are built on is that customers are going to be more willing to drop features rather than add days to the schedule. I think experimental evidence has proven that premise false. And frankly, it was kind of a ridiculous premise to begin with. Can you imagine if other professions adopted "agile" methodologies? Can you imagine your auto mechanic telling you, "Okay, well, putting the dashboard back on is going to take me until tomorrow, actually, but, if I only attach half the bolts and leave the speedometer disconnected, I can get it to you by the end of the day. Would that be all right?" Or a home-builder saying, "Okay, well, the drain pipes are proving trickier than anticipated to install, but I can give you the bathroom without the drain pipes, and install those in the "version 2.0" release. Would that be okay?"
  - lmm 4y ago
    > Can you imagine if other professions adopted "agile" methodologies? Can you imagine your auto mechanic telling you, "Okay, well, putting the dashboard back on is going to take me until tomorrow, actually, but, if I only attach half the bolts and leave the speedometer disconnected, I can get it to you by the end of the day. Would that be all right?" Or a home-builder saying, "Okay, well, the drain pipes are proving trickier than anticipated to install, but I can give you the bathroom without the drain pipes, and install those in the "version 2.0" release. Would that be okay?" You're talking about stuff that's a regression from the previous state of things, which is rather different. Where I live it's totally normal for a dentist to say "ok, I only had time to fill two teeth today, come back next week for the others". Or a tutor to say "ok, we'll stop there for today and finish the chapter next week". Or a cleaner to say "well I've got time to do the balcony or the fridge but not both, let me know which you want today and I'll do the other next week".

lmm 4y ago

> The point of my anecdote was to illustrate how Agile makes it easier to lie, and makes it difficult for honest people to call out liars. If a manager tells me that the deadline is Wednesday, and the deadline passes without anything bad happening, then he or she looks bad. If a manger estimates a "3", and I estimate a "3", and then it turns out that our definitions of what a "3" is differ, then I look bad. If your manager says they're following agile/scrum and says you took too long on that "3", they're lying and you should call them out; you don't look bad, they do. > I'd much rather that people be honest and up-front about the deadline (even if it is BS) than try to hide behind some overly complicated poker-game kabuki. If you've got a real deadline then be honest about it. But most everyday tasks don't need a deadline; agile isn't about pretending the deadline isn't a deadline, it's about actually not having a deadline.

quanticle 4y ago
But most everyday tasks don't need a deadline I think that's the crux of our disagreement. I think most everyday tasks do indeed have a deadline. Even if that task specifically doesn't have a deadline, it's often in service of a broader task which does. The premise that all agile methodologies are built on is that customers are going to be more willing to drop features rather than add days to the schedule. I think experimental evidence has proven that premise false. And frankly, it was kind of a ridiculous premise to begin with. Can you imagine if other professions adopted "agile" methodologies? Can you imagine your auto mechanic telling you, "Okay, well, putting the dashboard back on is going to take me until tomorrow, actually, but, if I only attach half the bolts and leave the speedometer disconnected, I can get it to you by the end of the day. Would that be all right?" Or a home-builder saying, "Okay, well, the drain pipes are proving trickier than anticipated to install, but I can give you the bathroom without the drain pipes, and install those in the "version 2.0" release. Would that be okay?"
- lmm 4y ago
  > Can you imagine if other professions adopted "agile" methodologies? Can you imagine your auto mechanic telling you, "Okay, well, putting the dashboard back on is going to take me until tomorrow, actually, but, if I only attach half the bolts and leave the speedometer disconnected, I can get it to you by the end of the day. Would that be all right?" Or a home-builder saying, "Okay, well, the drain pipes are proving trickier than anticipated to install, but I can give you the bathroom without the drain pipes, and install those in the "version 2.0" release. Would that be okay?" You're talking about stuff that's a regression from the previous state of things, which is rather different. Where I live it's totally normal for a dentist to say "ok, I only had time to fill two teeth today, come back next week for the others". Or a tutor to say "ok, we'll stop there for today and finish the chapter next week". Or a cleaner to say "well I've got time to do the balcony or the fridge but not both, let me know which you want today and I'll do the other next week".