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So? Is this supposed to make me angry or something? That the top 8 universities ordered by wealth creation produced 35% of the wealthiest individuals? Aka, on a

So? Is this supposed to make me angry or something? That the top 8 universities ordered by wealth creation produced 35% of the wealthiest individuals? Aka, on average each of those universities produced <5% of the wealthiest 9600 people? Tbh that’s actually lower than I would have expected when trying to cherry pick anger-fuel numbers for wealth inequality.

randomdata 4y ago
> That the top 8 universities ordered by wealth creation produced 35% of the wealthiest individuals? Produced doesn't sound right. If anything, wealth attainment has declined with the rise of post-secondary schooling. Incomes have held stagnant. There is no sign of economic production. "Those who come from wealthy families likely to choose amongst eight universities when selecting a university to attend" might be the most realistic way to frame this.
- theRealMe 4y ago
  “Produced” is a pretty standard way to describe people coming from a university. But I do understand that these universities aren’t just taking in the basic elements that compose a human being and churning out titans of industry… And about wealth attainment declining, we’re literally talking about the specific people that attained incredible amounts of wealth here… centimillionaires. Those are specifically what we’re counting. Your points about wealth attainment may hold true as an average of our whole population, but it’s specifically not the case for centimillionaires. And both the way that I apparently unintentionally “framed” it and the way that you framed it are accurate. The people that attend these elite universities usually(not always) did come from backgrounds with a lot of “help” AND were elevated higher by attending these universities(whether that be from the connections they made or the better-than-average education). It doesn’t have to be an either/or.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > AND were elevated higher by attending these universities(whether that be from the connections they made or the better-than-average education). Doubtful. The data just doesn't support it. Having connections and the capability to excel in that environment saw them more likely to be accepted into these schools, maybe. > It doesn’t have to be an either/or. It (university) also doesn't have to have any impact. It can just be a thing off to the side that someone does as a hobby. Just because it costs money doesn't mean it produces economic value. 35% of these people likely also own some kind of exotic sports car, but is the car the reason for their position? Not likely.
    - theRealMe 4y ago
      > Doubtful. The data just doesn't support it. Having connections and the capability to excel in that environment saw them more likely to be accepted into these schools, maybe. Which data doesn’t support it? The data that we’re talking about that shows that 35% of the richest people went to one of these 8 schools? Or is there some data that you have that shows similarly gifted students that come from similarly “helpful” backgrounds but went to average-or-worse universities, end up at least as wealthy as these students on average? I get and also believe that these schools probably get more credit than what they actually provide, but I don’t agree that they provide no added value compared to average universities. > It (university) also doesn't have to have any impact. It can just be a thing off to the side that someone does as a hobby. Just because it costs money doesn't mean it produces economic value. 35% of these people likely also own some kind of exotic sports car, but is the car the reason for their position? Not likely. At this point I’d like to ask you if you truly think that you are furthering some understanding or if you are just trying to be “right”? I’m not sure how to respond to someone that thinks they’re making a point by saying that owning an exotic car might have the same affect on overall life productively as going to an elite university. :/
      - randomdata 4y ago
        > I’m not sure how to respond to someone that thinks they’re making a point by saying that owning an exotic car might have the same affect on overall life productively as going to an elite university. :/ You don't have to respond if you don't have the education necessary to contribute. Not every comment necessitates a response. Particularly when you think I'm trying to make some point, which would be a pretty silly thing to do. What would I gain in making a point?
lapcat 4y ago
> Tbh that’s actually lower than I would have expected What would you have expected exactly, and why? For reference, there are around 4000 universities and colleges in the US. I personally had no priors about this issue. If you had asked me, what % of US centimillionaires attended these 8 universities, I would have said, I have no idea. So I find it interesting that you already had an estimate.
- theRealMe 4y ago
  You’ve reversed the question, which would have made me answer something differently. You said “what percentage of US centimillionaires attended these 8 universities”. If THAT was the question I potentially would have guessed lower than 35%. But the way that I understood the original question was “what percentage of centimillionaires attended the 8 universities which produced the MOST centimillionaires”. When you pick the subset that produced the most of something out of a group, you should expect the subset to be over represented compared to the group. Sort of like the Pareto principle. Also, part of the reason that I was surprised it was so low was that the numbers in the article were intentionally picked to invoke a reaction from the reader, and so if I’m coming from the angle of “let’s see how much wealth these fatcat elitists are hovering up!!” Then I’m a little surprised it’s only 35%.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    However you frame the question, "these 8 universities" or "the 8 universities which produced the MOST centimillionaires", neither "lower than 35%" nor "I’m a little surprised it’s only 35%" is an actual numerical percentage. This is not a percentage either: "you should expect the subset to be over represented compared to the group." However you want to frame the question, what were your priors, and why? You haven't said what exactly you would have guessed. I had no priors for either framing of the question. Stepping back, the point is that putting the disparity of wealth into numerical terms is important because otherwise we generally have no measure of wealth disparity, just a vague recognition that some people are wealthier than others. It's unclear why you or I or anyone would have prior % estimates, based on no empirical studies, only vague impressions of society. There's a point to studying things empirically and comprehensively, which is to teach us things we didn't know before. I'm skeptical of any claims that "This is nothing new or surprising", as if laymen magically had intuitive access to these empirical facts. Also, what's notable about those 8 universities is not just that they produced the most centi-millionaires but also that they're very difficult to get into and obscenely expensive. Access is extremely limited. And of course they have "legacy" admissions. We know that wealthy and well-connected people go there, and we know that ambitious kids want to go there (as evidenced by their very low acceptance rates).

randomdata 4y ago

> That the top 8 universities ordered by wealth creation produced 35% of the wealthiest individuals? Produced doesn't sound right. If anything, wealth attainment has declined with the rise of post-secondary schooling. Incomes have held stagnant. There is no sign of economic production. "Those who come from wealthy families likely to choose amongst eight universities when selecting a university to attend" might be the most realistic way to frame this.

theRealMe 4y ago
“Produced” is a pretty standard way to describe people coming from a university. But I do understand that these universities aren’t just taking in the basic elements that compose a human being and churning out titans of industry… And about wealth attainment declining, we’re literally talking about the specific people that attained incredible amounts of wealth here… centimillionaires. Those are specifically what we’re counting. Your points about wealth attainment may hold true as an average of our whole population, but it’s specifically not the case for centimillionaires. And both the way that I apparently unintentionally “framed” it and the way that you framed it are accurate. The people that attend these elite universities usually(not always) did come from backgrounds with a lot of “help” AND were elevated higher by attending these universities(whether that be from the connections they made or the better-than-average education). It doesn’t have to be an either/or.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > AND were elevated higher by attending these universities(whether that be from the connections they made or the better-than-average education). Doubtful. The data just doesn't support it. Having connections and the capability to excel in that environment saw them more likely to be accepted into these schools, maybe. > It doesn’t have to be an either/or. It (university) also doesn't have to have any impact. It can just be a thing off to the side that someone does as a hobby. Just because it costs money doesn't mean it produces economic value. 35% of these people likely also own some kind of exotic sports car, but is the car the reason for their position? Not likely.
  - theRealMe 4y ago
    > Doubtful. The data just doesn't support it. Having connections and the capability to excel in that environment saw them more likely to be accepted into these schools, maybe. Which data doesn’t support it? The data that we’re talking about that shows that 35% of the richest people went to one of these 8 schools? Or is there some data that you have that shows similarly gifted students that come from similarly “helpful” backgrounds but went to average-or-worse universities, end up at least as wealthy as these students on average? I get and also believe that these schools probably get more credit than what they actually provide, but I don’t agree that they provide no added value compared to average universities. > It (university) also doesn't have to have any impact. It can just be a thing off to the side that someone does as a hobby. Just because it costs money doesn't mean it produces economic value. 35% of these people likely also own some kind of exotic sports car, but is the car the reason for their position? Not likely. At this point I’d like to ask you if you truly think that you are furthering some understanding or if you are just trying to be “right”? I’m not sure how to respond to someone that thinks they’re making a point by saying that owning an exotic car might have the same affect on overall life productively as going to an elite university. :/
    - randomdata 4y ago
      > I’m not sure how to respond to someone that thinks they’re making a point by saying that owning an exotic car might have the same affect on overall life productively as going to an elite university. :/ You don't have to respond if you don't have the education necessary to contribute. Not every comment necessitates a response. Particularly when you think I'm trying to make some point, which would be a pretty silly thing to do. What would I gain in making a point?

lapcat 4y ago

> Tbh that’s actually lower than I would have expected What would you have expected exactly, and why? For reference, there are around 4000 universities and colleges in the US. I personally had no priors about this issue. If you had asked me, what % of US centimillionaires attended these 8 universities, I would have said, I have no idea. So I find it interesting that you already had an estimate.

theRealMe 4y ago
You’ve reversed the question, which would have made me answer something differently. You said “what percentage of US centimillionaires attended these 8 universities”. If THAT was the question I potentially would have guessed lower than 35%. But the way that I understood the original question was “what percentage of centimillionaires attended the 8 universities which produced the MOST centimillionaires”. When you pick the subset that produced the most of something out of a group, you should expect the subset to be over represented compared to the group. Sort of like the Pareto principle. Also, part of the reason that I was surprised it was so low was that the numbers in the article were intentionally picked to invoke a reaction from the reader, and so if I’m coming from the angle of “let’s see how much wealth these fatcat elitists are hovering up!!” Then I’m a little surprised it’s only 35%.
- lapcat 4y ago
  However you frame the question, "these 8 universities" or "the 8 universities which produced the MOST centimillionaires", neither "lower than 35%" nor "I’m a little surprised it’s only 35%" is an actual numerical percentage. This is not a percentage either: "you should expect the subset to be over represented compared to the group." However you want to frame the question, what were your priors, and why? You haven't said what exactly you would have guessed. I had no priors for either framing of the question. Stepping back, the point is that putting the disparity of wealth into numerical terms is important because otherwise we generally have no measure of wealth disparity, just a vague recognition that some people are wealthier than others. It's unclear why you or I or anyone would have prior % estimates, based on no empirical studies, only vague impressions of society. There's a point to studying things empirically and comprehensively, which is to teach us things we didn't know before. I'm skeptical of any claims that "This is nothing new or surprising", as if laymen magically had intuitive access to these empirical facts. Also, what's notable about those 8 universities is not just that they produced the most centi-millionaires but also that they're very difficult to get into and obscenely expensive. Access is extremely limited. And of course they have "legacy" admissions. We know that wealthy and well-connected people go there, and we know that ambitious kids want to go there (as evidenced by their very low acceptance rates).