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I gotta be honest, this post reads like "just driving by I knew how to fix all these peolles' problems but they seem too lazy to care". Is it possible there's s

by tdeck 4y ago

I gotta be honest, this post reads like "just driving by I knew how to fix all these peolles' problems but they seem too lazy to care". Is it possible there's something you don't know about each of these scenarios? It's easy to construct some self congratulatory narrative when you're visiting a poor country, but it's also a trap. In the past, these narratives tended to be biological. Now they're "cultural" but the effect is often similar. Take the pipe example. Maybe the police don't let people just "crowd fund" repairs to public infrastructure and perform them themselves. Maybe what you saw on the video isn't representative of the whole problem, or your assessment of the repair difficulty isn't accurate. Perhaps your brilliant idea about pricing and selling ecotourism booklets isn't such a great idea after all. Maybe they already tried it and tried different price points and were too polite to tell you. That's common in "development" projects where there's a power/wealth imbalance between the person giving well meaning advice and the folks receiving it. Speaking of which, maybe home repairs that look cheap when you're driving by aren't actually cheap by local standards. Perhaps the materials aren't affordable or people have absentee landlords that don't take care of the place because it's not in their interest to do so. There are plenty of buildings like this in SF but the reason is economic incentives, not a culture of apathy. Who knows what's going on with your friend's construction business. As an absentee foreigner they may rely on a foreman who pockets a bunch of the workers' pay, making it a shitty deal for the workers.

fleddr 4y ago
Yes, I was wrong on all accounts. And even though locals will readily confirm and admit to these cultural issues and are equally frustrated by it, it's best to pretend they don't exist. Because I said it. And obviously my only possible agenda can be rationalize a sense of superiority, it can't possibly because I care.
the_omegist 4y ago
While I like that you try to show the situation(s) may be more complex than seen at first glance (which is true for any situation anyway), the sheer number of situations should easily explain there is one or many global causes for all these. I watch the video of a thai native going back to Thailand to make a restaurant and his experience is the same : paid the workers more to get them "committed" but they have this culture of "good enough/it's not important". You cannot expect civilizations with millenia of divergent cultures and climate to have evolved with the same cultural/traditional habits.
luckylion 4y ago
In what corrupt country have you seen the police super active to keep random citizens from fixing issues that affect them personally? In what countries do they even have the manpower to keep someone posted on each broken piece of infrastructure to guard it and make sure that it doesn't get fixed? It sounds like you're reaching for explanations and grasping at straws. At some point you either get to "maybe aliens did it" or you stop reaching and look for other explanations. > There are plenty of buildings like this in SF but the reason is economic incentives, not a culture of apathy. Yes, some things can look similar but be very much not the same. Look at the incentives, I'm sure they're not the same between a slumlord in SF and someone living in their own house.
- fleddr 4y ago
  The grasping at straws is because I, a westerner, said it. Had a local expressed it, which they regularly do if one cares to listen, then none of the examples would be challenged. Half my examples are made by locals, they aren't even my personal take on it. Not only is any plain and simple observation I make incorrect, it is also not so subtly assumed to be driven by an agenda of biological or cultural racial hierarchy. Which is to suggest that I'm a supremacist looking to confirm my supremacy. That is what is implied. I can handle that bad faith toxic notion just fine, no issue there. The real issue is that this style of discourse strongly discourages people to call out very serious issues that are grounded in reality. Just pretend they don't exist. To remind what got this started: "I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this." And where we're at now: Nah, it's all fine. Stop talking about it.
- tdeck 4y ago
  > In what corrupt country have you seen the police super active to keep random citizens from fixing issues that affect them personally? In a country where they can benefit from pushing you around and enforcing arbitrary rules? Is it really hard to imagine corrupt police stopping a citizen from doing something that's technically illegal and benefits the citizen? That's the entire basis of their power. > Yes, some things can look similar but be very much not the same. Look at the incentives, I'm sure they're not the same between a slumlord in SF and someone living in their own house. You don't know someone owns the house they're living in when you drive by. That was exactly my point.

by tdeck 4y ago

fleddr 4y ago

Yes, I was wrong on all accounts. And even though locals will readily confirm and admit to these cultural issues and are equally frustrated by it, it's best to pretend they don't exist. Because I said it. And obviously my only possible agenda can be rationalize a sense of superiority, it can't possibly because I care.

the_omegist 4y ago

While I like that you try to show the situation(s) may be more complex than seen at first glance (which is true for any situation anyway), the sheer number of situations should easily explain there is one or many global causes for all these. I watch the video of a thai native going back to Thailand to make a restaurant and his experience is the same : paid the workers more to get them "committed" but they have this culture of "good enough/it's not important". You cannot expect civilizations with millenia of divergent cultures and climate to have evolved with the same cultural/traditional habits.

luckylion 4y ago

In what corrupt country have you seen the police super active to keep random citizens from fixing issues that affect them personally? In what countries do they even have the manpower to keep someone posted on each broken piece of infrastructure to guard it and make sure that it doesn't get fixed? It sounds like you're reaching for explanations and grasping at straws. At some point you either get to "maybe aliens did it" or you stop reaching and look for other explanations. > There are plenty of buildings like this in SF but the reason is economic incentives, not a culture of apathy. Yes, some things can look similar but be very much not the same. Look at the incentives, I'm sure they're not the same between a slumlord in SF and someone living in their own house.

fleddr 4y ago
The grasping at straws is because I, a westerner, said it. Had a local expressed it, which they regularly do if one cares to listen, then none of the examples would be challenged. Half my examples are made by locals, they aren't even my personal take on it. Not only is any plain and simple observation I make incorrect, it is also not so subtly assumed to be driven by an agenda of biological or cultural racial hierarchy. Which is to suggest that I'm a supremacist looking to confirm my supremacy. That is what is implied. I can handle that bad faith toxic notion just fine, no issue there. The real issue is that this style of discourse strongly discourages people to call out very serious issues that are grounded in reality. Just pretend they don't exist. To remind what got this started: "I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this." And where we're at now: Nah, it's all fine. Stop talking about it.
tdeck 4y ago
> In what corrupt country have you seen the police super active to keep random citizens from fixing issues that affect them personally? In a country where they can benefit from pushing you around and enforcing arbitrary rules? Is it really hard to imagine corrupt police stopping a citizen from doing something that's technically illegal and benefits the citizen? That's the entire basis of their power. > Yes, some things can look similar but be very much not the same. Look at the incentives, I'm sure they're not the same between a slumlord in SF and someone living in their own house. You don't know someone owns the house they're living in when you drive by. That was exactly my point.