4 ms·

How can we expect anyone in power in these cartel countries to be free of corruption. They all have a choice of payment, in silver or lead -- https://www.urband

How can we expect anyone in power in these cartel countries to be free of corruption. They all have a choice of payment, in silver or lead -- https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plata%20o%20plomo https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plata%20o%20... The only sane answer is to legalize, regulate, and tax all drugs. This needs to be followed by treating drug abuse/addiction as a health issue (not criminal).

DFHippie 4y ago
Perhaps, but that isn't a complete solution. I watched smuggled cigarettes being transferred from one semi to another when I was hitching around Spain back in the 90s (the Spanish guy driving the car told me this is what I was seeing). There was profit in crime still because there was profit in dodging the tax.
- jslaby 4y ago
  Probably not profit in the $100 millions though. This is when you start seeing brutal defense of those profits.. turf war, beheadings..
xrd 4y ago
It's interesting, that's what happened in Portland, right? It is really curious to think about the cartels as large startups. If you take that leap, it would be logical that they would be violently opposed to decriminalization. Like competing gangs would be killing people, and the cartels would be doing anything they can to convince the local government to redact that decision. I'm not saying I've got any evidence that cartels are committing crimes in places where drugs are legalized to change laws, but it is interesting that Portland crime has increased a lot. Many people will say that's because of liberal politicians. But there is other information that says that more policing almost never reduces crime directly. And the corollary is that reducing police, either by defunding or attrition, wouldn't cause increases in crime, right? If anyone has perspectives on what Portland did wrong, I'm interested in hearing it. It is really bizarre to me as a native Portlander that crime seems so excessive. I never felt unsafe in the prior forty years and things seem very different now. The only two big differences were the endless protests against police brutality and the legalization of drugs. Why did this crime surge increase so much in Portland?
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  One other thing to note is that the drugs have changed. In general as the years have went on, drugs have increased in potency and side effects. An interesting piece from the Atlantic about how meth has changed: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...
  - xrd 4y ago
    That's an incredible and scary article. Thank you.
  - twelve40 4y ago
    whoa this reads almost exactly like the script for Breaking Bad... 2006 p2p vs sudafed, all the details even the Czech Republic...
    - xrd 4y ago
      They mention in the article it was a subplot on the show! That show was so good because it felt so close to reality, and turns out, it was.
- seizethecheese 4y ago
  The supply side of the drugs is still done by illegal organizations. Portland decriminalized demand which increased the total amount of drug trade without formalizing the drug trade. More violence is a natural consequence.
  - xrd 4y ago
    But why? I'm open to this idea, but it seems antithetical to what I believe about human nature. Simply using drugs isn't IMHO a pathway to violence. That comes, again IMHO, from desperation and other factors. If you decriminalize drugs, the theory is that you would remove the desperation and could fund recovery through taxation. I'm sure it is more complicated than that, but the drug war isn't working either and at far greater cost. But maybe the vested interests prefer it that way?
mannerheim 4y ago
The cartels at this point have diversified into avocado farming, iron mining, and forestry. Not to mention human trafficking, which makes them some $13 billion a year. The war on drugs has been a disaster and should be ended, but saying that legalising all drugs will solve the cartel problem is too simplistic. And while legalising heroin and prostitution and instituting open borders could overall be better policy, these are a bridge too far for most Americans.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  As you point out, the cartel problem won’t be solved by any single isolated action, however big it is. Legalizing drugs is the obvious first step, but yes, there’s thousands of other steps and a whole whack-a-mole game starting from there to weaken the bigger players.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Also, it’s a very dangerous game of whack—a-mole. One previous strategy was to try and cut off the heads of the cartels, but it didn’t stop the drug smuggling, and increased violence due to the power vacuum. The cartels that would win out were often worse.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
      How much worse can we get? There’s open warfare on Mexican streets. Mexican gangs are active across the U.S. human trafficking is a well established part of their business. Slavery and forced labor is not unheard of among cartel. Do the worse gangs have their eyes on nuclear weapons, chemical warfare?
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        You are describing the worst. This policy already happened, and the cartels already transformed. > Since Calderón launched his military strategy against organized crime, there was an alarming increase in violent deaths related to organized crime: more than 15,000 people died in suspected drug cartel attacks since it was launched at the end of 2006.[62] More than 5,000 people were murdered in Mexico in 2008,[63] followed by 9,600 murders in 2009; 2010 saw more than 15,000 homicides across the country.[64] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war

DFHippie 4y ago

Perhaps, but that isn't a complete solution. I watched smuggled cigarettes being transferred from one semi to another when I was hitching around Spain back in the 90s (the Spanish guy driving the car told me this is what I was seeing). There was profit in crime still because there was profit in dodging the tax.

jslaby 4y ago
Probably not profit in the $100 millions though. This is when you start seeing brutal defense of those profits.. turf war, beheadings..

xrd 4y ago

It's interesting, that's what happened in Portland, right? It is really curious to think about the cartels as large startups. If you take that leap, it would be logical that they would be violently opposed to decriminalization. Like competing gangs would be killing people, and the cartels would be doing anything they can to convince the local government to redact that decision. I'm not saying I've got any evidence that cartels are committing crimes in places where drugs are legalized to change laws, but it is interesting that Portland crime has increased a lot. Many people will say that's because of liberal politicians. But there is other information that says that more policing almost never reduces crime directly. And the corollary is that reducing police, either by defunding or attrition, wouldn't cause increases in crime, right? If anyone has perspectives on what Portland did wrong, I'm interested in hearing it. It is really bizarre to me as a native Portlander that crime seems so excessive. I never felt unsafe in the prior forty years and things seem very different now. The only two big differences were the endless protests against police brutality and the legalization of drugs. Why did this crime surge increase so much in Portland?

bobthepanda 4y ago
One other thing to note is that the drugs have changed. In general as the years have went on, drugs have increased in potency and side effects. An interesting piece from the Atlantic about how meth has changed: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...
- xrd 4y ago
  That's an incredible and scary article. Thank you.
- twelve40 4y ago
  whoa this reads almost exactly like the script for Breaking Bad... 2006 p2p vs sudafed, all the details even the Czech Republic...
  - xrd 4y ago
    They mention in the article it was a subplot on the show! That show was so good because it felt so close to reality, and turns out, it was.
seizethecheese 4y ago
The supply side of the drugs is still done by illegal organizations. Portland decriminalized demand which increased the total amount of drug trade without formalizing the drug trade. More violence is a natural consequence.
- xrd 4y ago
  But why? I'm open to this idea, but it seems antithetical to what I believe about human nature. Simply using drugs isn't IMHO a pathway to violence. That comes, again IMHO, from desperation and other factors. If you decriminalize drugs, the theory is that you would remove the desperation and could fund recovery through taxation. I'm sure it is more complicated than that, but the drug war isn't working either and at far greater cost. But maybe the vested interests prefer it that way?

mannerheim 4y ago

The cartels at this point have diversified into avocado farming, iron mining, and forestry. Not to mention human trafficking, which makes them some $13 billion a year. The war on drugs has been a disaster and should be ended, but saying that legalising all drugs will solve the cartel problem is too simplistic. And while legalising heroin and prostitution and instituting open borders could overall be better policy, these are a bridge too far for most Americans.

makeitdouble 4y ago
As you point out, the cartel problem won’t be solved by any single isolated action, however big it is. Legalizing drugs is the obvious first step, but yes, there’s thousands of other steps and a whole whack-a-mole game starting from there to weaken the bigger players.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Also, it’s a very dangerous game of whack—a-mole. One previous strategy was to try and cut off the heads of the cartels, but it didn’t stop the drug smuggling, and increased violence due to the power vacuum. The cartels that would win out were often worse.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
    How much worse can we get? There’s open warfare on Mexican streets. Mexican gangs are active across the U.S. human trafficking is a well established part of their business. Slavery and forced labor is not unheard of among cartel. Do the worse gangs have their eyes on nuclear weapons, chemical warfare?
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      You are describing the worst. This policy already happened, and the cartels already transformed. > Since Calderón launched his military strategy against organized crime, there was an alarming increase in violent deaths related to organized crime: more than 15,000 people died in suspected drug cartel attacks since it was launched at the end of 2006.[62] More than 5,000 people were murdered in Mexico in 2008,[63] followed by 9,600 murders in 2009; 2010 saw more than 15,000 homicides across the country.[64] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_drug_war