3 ms·

Boys are for sure not exempt from harm, but the harm seems to be as a result of equity: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-

by Zetice 4y ago

Boys are for sure not exempt from harm, but the harm seems to be as a result of equity: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/amp/ https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-yo... > “Today in America, women expect more from men,” Levant said, “and unfortunately, so many men don’t have more to give.” Powerful stuff.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
RangerScience 4y ago
Quote in more context: > Women are tiring of their stereotypical role as full-time therapist for emotionally distant men. They want a partner who is emotionally open and empathetic, the opposite of the age-old masculine ideal. > “Today in America, women expect more from men,” Levant said, “and unfortunately, so many men don’t have more to give.” I think it’s pretty clear that the harm isn’t caused by equity, but that the equity exposes the harm caused by other things.
- Zetice 4y ago
  Yeah fair, I obviously don't think equity is a bad thing, I just think a lot of men were taught to rely on inequity and now that it's being reduced, those men aren't adapting.
marcellus23 4y ago
A bit disappointing seeing the implicit bias in that article. The thrust seems to basically be "women are fine, men are failing and need to do better". Some choice quotes: > Women are tiring of their stereotypical role as full-time therapist for emotionally distant men > “Today in America, women expect more from men,” Levant said, “and unfortunately, so many men don’t have more to give.” > The same emotional deficits that hurt men in the dating pool also hamper them in forming meaningful friendships. At first glance the article is even-handed, but reading closely you notice that not a single trait of women is described using negative terms, but men are described as needing women to be their therapists, as "not having more to give" women, and as having "emotional deficits." This is basically an inversion of the ancient trope that women are defective men, and just as harmful.
- Zetice 4y ago
  Of course it's on the men to adjust, and that's what we see in most men overall. The ones who struggle to find relationships are the men who aren't adjusting. We should figure out why they're not adjusting, not ask the women to give back some of their hard-earned freedoms because some men can't handle it. The inversion would be if the claim was that a trait of men is causing this maladjustment, but the claim is instead that men are misprioritizing an equal relationship with a woman in favor of career and unequal relationships that they're now struggling to find. Also I dunno if you missed this quote, but it's firmly discussing actions women are taking that impact these single men: > Heterosexual women are getting more choosy. Women “don’t want to marry down,” to form a long-term relationship to a man with less education and earnings than herself, said Ronald Levant, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Akron and author of several books on masculinity. The article also ended on a hopeful note, giving an example of a group of men who do prioritize relationships, with their Man of the Year trophy, saying literally: > “We treat friendship as a luxury, especially men,” Ritter said. “It’s a necessity.”
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    Women can't all "marry up" unless you systematically disadvantage all women, such that for F1, there is a M1 who is of higher whatever (status, income, looks), and so on for F2 and M2, F3 and M3, and so on. Given the stats on enrollment in colleges, on who is preferred for tenure track in academia, and so on and so forth, well ... that's just not gonna work out.
    - pixl97 4y ago
      This is not a binary decision, there is a third choice of not marrying at all.
      - at_a_remove 4y ago
        Correct! Which is in itself an interesting bit that also serves to make the "dating scene" (that feels too small to encapsulate the whole problem) fraught: men are, for want of a better term, thirstier than women are, on average, only extend that slang to far more than just sex. If this is true, and I think it is, this will only leave more men milling about, unmatched, which can lead to a better fulfillment of "marrying up" for women, at the cost of more men remaining unmarried. Of course, nobody cares about men in and of themselves, so that's not really a problem.
at_a_remove 4y ago
They can expect more, but it might not be all that reasonable. Right now, single women are earning more than single men (and have greater home ownership). Yet most women would prefer than men earn more than they do. Put those two things together and you create this untenable situation where women desire only a fairly small fraction of men. And that's just from an economic perspective and what people will admit to right now, nevermind anything else.

by Zetice 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

RangerScience 4y ago

Quote in more context: > Women are tiring of their stereotypical role as full-time therapist for emotionally distant men. They want a partner who is emotionally open and empathetic, the opposite of the age-old masculine ideal. > “Today in America, women expect more from men,” Levant said, “and unfortunately, so many men don’t have more to give.” I think it’s pretty clear that the harm isn’t caused by equity, but that the equity exposes the harm caused by other things.

Zetice 4y ago
Yeah fair, I obviously don't think equity is a bad thing, I just think a lot of men were taught to rely on inequity and now that it's being reduced, those men aren't adapting.

marcellus23 4y ago

A bit disappointing seeing the implicit bias in that article. The thrust seems to basically be "women are fine, men are failing and need to do better". Some choice quotes: > Women are tiring of their stereotypical role as full-time therapist for emotionally distant men > “Today in America, women expect more from men,” Levant said, “and unfortunately, so many men don’t have more to give.” > The same emotional deficits that hurt men in the dating pool also hamper them in forming meaningful friendships. At first glance the article is even-handed, but reading closely you notice that not a single trait of women is described using negative terms, but men are described as needing women to be their therapists, as "not having more to give" women, and as having "emotional deficits." This is basically an inversion of the ancient trope that women are defective men, and just as harmful.

Zetice 4y ago
Of course it's on the men to adjust, and that's what we see in most men overall. The ones who struggle to find relationships are the men who aren't adjusting. We should figure out why they're not adjusting, not ask the women to give back some of their hard-earned freedoms because some men can't handle it. The inversion would be if the claim was that a trait of men is causing this maladjustment, but the claim is instead that men are misprioritizing an equal relationship with a woman in favor of career and unequal relationships that they're now struggling to find. Also I dunno if you missed this quote, but it's firmly discussing actions women are taking that impact these single men: > Heterosexual women are getting more choosy. Women “don’t want to marry down,” to form a long-term relationship to a man with less education and earnings than herself, said Ronald Levant, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Akron and author of several books on masculinity. The article also ended on a hopeful note, giving an example of a group of men who do prioritize relationships, with their Man of the Year trophy, saying literally: > “We treat friendship as a luxury, especially men,” Ritter said. “It’s a necessity.”
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  Women can't all "marry up" unless you systematically disadvantage all women, such that for F1, there is a M1 who is of higher whatever (status, income, looks), and so on for F2 and M2, F3 and M3, and so on. Given the stats on enrollment in colleges, on who is preferred for tenure track in academia, and so on and so forth, well ... that's just not gonna work out.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    This is not a binary decision, there is a third choice of not marrying at all.
    - at_a_remove 4y ago
      Correct! Which is in itself an interesting bit that also serves to make the "dating scene" (that feels too small to encapsulate the whole problem) fraught: men are, for want of a better term, thirstier than women are, on average, only extend that slang to far more than just sex. If this is true, and I think it is, this will only leave more men milling about, unmatched, which can lead to a better fulfillment of "marrying up" for women, at the cost of more men remaining unmarried. Of course, nobody cares about men in and of themselves, so that's not really a problem.

at_a_remove 4y ago

They can expect more, but it might not be all that reasonable. Right now, single women are earning more than single men (and have greater home ownership). Yet most women would prefer than men earn more than they do. Put those two things together and you create this untenable situation where women desire only a fairly small fraction of men. And that's just from an economic perspective and what people will admit to right now, nevermind anything else.