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We sent out a Brady notice on this recently. It appears that one or more major sources of poppy seed imports are contaminated with poppy latex, possibly due to

We sent out a Brady notice on this recently. It appears that one or more major sources of poppy seed imports are contaminated with poppy latex, possibly due to improper washing during the harvest and processing of the seeds. Some brands are more susceptible than others. Important to note this isn't a false positive (i.e., not a problem with lab procedures). I don't know the medical side of this, but at least some of the toxicologists I spoke with were concerned that, at sufficient quantities, affected individuals could experience adverse health events based on consumption of the contaminated poppy seeds. (Also: the DoD reporting cutoff for codeine was already significantly higher than the industry standard, to try to eliminate or minimize the possibility of this happening.)

gus_massa 4y ago
> but at least some of the toxicologists I spoke with were concerned that, at sufficient quantities, affected individuals could experience adverse health events based on consumption of the contaminated poppy seeds. Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed? The dose makes the poison. The problem is that the tests are oversensitive. It's like failing a drug test due to a coffee in the morning because it may be an excuse to be taking pure caffeine pills.
- torstenvl 4y ago
  > Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed? As I clearly explained, this is due to contamination, possibly due to poor washing. The quantity needed is therefore going to depend on the level of contamination. > The problem is that the tests are oversensitive. The DoD has been operating on a 2000ng/mL cutoff, which is high, so... no. Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive?
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    What is the dangerous dose of raw unwashed poppy seed? Can just one of them kill you? > Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive? Yes, exactly. The dose makes the poison. For example in the north of Argentina (were my parents come from), it's common to chew coca leaves [1]. They have cocaine! (There is also coca tea.) It's part of the local traditions and even part of the old religions (that are now somewhat mixed with the chistian religions). They have cocaine! But the dose is so low that you can get as high as drinking a cup of coffee. That has caffeine! Do you want to ban worldwide coca chewing, coffee, tea, ... Note that it's not equivalent to taking pure cocaine that is extracted proceeding a very huge amount of coca leaves. Like it's not equivalent a cup of coffee to pure caffeine. Anyway, national and international regulation sometimes ignore this local details and doses, and you may get in trouble. [1] Spanish: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acullico https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acullico The English article is too short. Autotranslation: https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Acullico?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Acullico?_x_t...
    - torstenvl 4y ago
      You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the issue and I don't know how to explain it more clearly than I have. It does not matter how many poppy seeds there are. It matters how much poppy latex remains on them. The poppy seed itself contains no opiates. The quantitative measure you're looking for is widely variable, because—again—it's not a matter of how many poppy seeds, but the level of contamination at the source. Five years ago it may have been practically impossible. Now, one poppy seed muffin in one experiment with one participant led to a codeine urinalysis result of 1300ng/mL. Others were usually lower, but without wider experimentation it's hard to say what the maximum value is or what the true error bars are. The tests are not the issue.
      - gus_massa 4y ago
        From one of the fists results on Google: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6513924/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6513924/ It looks like 1kg (2 pounds) of [unwashed?] poppy seeds are addictive but not lethal. I'm not sure how to extrapolate that to the minimal active dose. How many poppy seeds does bread/desert have? 5%? 10%? You must eat like 10Kg (20 pounds). A normal person eats like 1kg of food per day. Also a reputable bakery will use washed-but-not-perfectly-washed poppy seeds instead of unwashed poppy seeds, so you should multiply the amount of bread x10 or x100.

gus_massa 4y ago

> but at least some of the toxicologists I spoke with were concerned that, at sufficient quantities, affected individuals could experience adverse health events based on consumption of the contaminated poppy seeds. Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed? The dose makes the poison. The problem is that the tests are oversensitive. It's like failing a drug test due to a coffee in the morning because it may be an excuse to be taking pure caffeine pills.

torstenvl 4y ago
> Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed? As I clearly explained, this is due to contamination, possibly due to poor washing. The quantity needed is therefore going to depend on the level of contamination. > The problem is that the tests are oversensitive. The DoD has been operating on a 2000ng/mL cutoff, which is high, so... no. Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive?
- gus_massa 4y ago
  What is the dangerous dose of raw unwashed poppy seed? Can just one of them kill you? > Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive? Yes, exactly. The dose makes the poison. For example in the north of Argentina (were my parents come from), it's common to chew coca leaves [1]. They have cocaine! (There is also coca tea.) It's part of the local traditions and even part of the old religions (that are now somewhat mixed with the chistian religions). They have cocaine! But the dose is so low that you can get as high as drinking a cup of coffee. That has caffeine! Do you want to ban worldwide coca chewing, coffee, tea, ... Note that it's not equivalent to taking pure cocaine that is extracted proceeding a very huge amount of coca leaves. Like it's not equivalent a cup of coffee to pure caffeine. Anyway, national and international regulation sometimes ignore this local details and doses, and you may get in trouble. [1] Spanish: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acullico https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acullico The English article is too short. Autotranslation: https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Acullico?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Acullico?_x_t...
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the issue and I don't know how to explain it more clearly than I have. It does not matter how many poppy seeds there are. It matters how much poppy latex remains on them. The poppy seed itself contains no opiates. The quantitative measure you're looking for is widely variable, because—again—it's not a matter of how many poppy seeds, but the level of contamination at the source. Five years ago it may have been practically impossible. Now, one poppy seed muffin in one experiment with one participant led to a codeine urinalysis result of 1300ng/mL. Others were usually lower, but without wider experimentation it's hard to say what the maximum value is or what the true error bars are. The tests are not the issue.
    - gus_massa 4y ago
      From one of the fists results on Google: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6513924/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6513924/ It looks like 1kg (2 pounds) of [unwashed?] poppy seeds are addictive but not lethal. I'm not sure how to extrapolate that to the minimal active dose. How many poppy seeds does bread/desert have? 5%? 10%? You must eat like 10Kg (20 pounds). A normal person eats like 1kg of food per day. Also a reputable bakery will use washed-but-not-perfectly-washed poppy seeds instead of unwashed poppy seeds, so you should multiply the amount of bread x10 or x100.