4 ms·

A lot of this is game theory at play. > 1. Applicants must wade through large volumes of job postings, which are often poorly written, and frequently lacking k

A lot of this is game theory at play. > 1. Applicants must wade through large volumes of job postings, which are often poorly written, and frequently lacking key information which is important to the applicant. This is nothing new - it's been this way for over 20 years. Job postings are not more poorly written than in the past. > 2. Employers are overwhelmed with large numbers of applicants, most of whom don't meet the requested minimum requirements. Because many/most employers are willing to hire people who don't meet the minimum requirements. Or rather, they are sloppy when they made the job posting. Therefore, applicants who actually honor the minimum requirements are at a disadvantage. > 3. Employers are then too overwhelmed to reply to all the applicants. Same reason as above. Employers got themselves into this mess because they are not strict with their minimum requirements. I don't have solutions for the whole system, but a given employer can do much to improve things: 1. Employer posts accurate postings and are strict about minimum requirements. Applicants who submit applications where they clearly are not meeting the requirements are blacklisted for a year (make this clear up front). 2. Do not let people apply to more than 3 positions at once. 3. Require a proper cover letter. 4. Develop a reputation for good candidate management. If someone applies, they should hear from you in a decent timeframe (even if it is a simple rejection). 5. Write in reasonable detail about the interview process. Will it involve Leetcode style questions? Etc. Most applicants will just not apply to you, but that's fine. The key to making it work is step 4. As an example, I almost never include a cover letter, because it consumes a lot of my time, and I discovered that over 90% of openings that have an option for a cover letter never read them. If I'm submitting a cover letter, I want a strong commitment that it will be read.

noirbot 4y ago
I was going to ask about Cover Letters. Why do you think that's such a big improvement, especially in the current AI Generation zone? Most of the time I've written a cover letter, it may as well have been written by an AI, or I simply recycled another one I'd written and changed the names. If you're actually going to reject someone for having a bad cover letter, does that not heavily bias against people who aren't as proficient in your chosen language?
- BeetleB 4y ago
  I don't care if an AI wrote it, as long as it reflects the candidate's motives and background. > If you're actually going to reject someone for having a bad cover letter, does that not heavily bias against people who aren't as proficient in your chosen language? Then get ChatGPT or a friend to write it? :-) When I say "proper", I don't mean "good grammar", but things like why you think you'd be a good candidate. Why does this job appeal to you[1]? Etc. [1] I personally don't like this one as much,
  - noirbot 4y ago
    Fair, but you're always going to get a pretty bland paper. The honest answer is "so I get money and am not homeless and starving" and my background is "I do computer things so I'm not homeless and starving". Whether they'll write that out, that's roughly correct for most people. Is part of being a good employee faking that you're probably at least primarily there because they're making sure you can pay your bills? Sure, I'd rather work somewhere interesting than not, but writing a nice cover letter about how I'm interested in your project and mission goes out the door pretty quick when you come back with how you want to pay me 60k under market rate. I'm not exactly anti cover letter, but it feels like writing a dating profile. It's me putting on a bit of a guise and obscuring at least part of my true motives. Everyone involved should understand that or is hopelessly naive, but then what signal do you get from it? That I care enough to dissemble effectively to you? That you think I'm as interested in your company as you're going to tell me all about how you'll treat me like family?
    - BeetleB 4y ago
      > The honest answer is "so I get money and am not homeless and starving" For a lot, if not most, programmers, there are other ways of making a living. If you are of the mindset that there aren't, I may have some roles for you, but they would not be growth roles and some may feel exploitative, but they are not because there are no shortage of engineers who are happy with such roles. You picked SW development over other viable options for a reason. > and my background is "I do computer things so I'm not homeless and starving". The ask is what, not why. My background is that I am an engineering guy (non-CS), who pivoted at some point to SW. Your background may be different. If you've got 10 years at various companies, you do have a background other than "I do computer things". But to get to your sentiment: Yes, we all know we're all trying to make a living. The cover letter is an opportunity to speak to why this job and not any other job. If you don't have a reason, that's fine. Over 90% of the times I do not either. But that means I and you are as guilty of contributing to the "problem" of this submission as employers are. More importantly, if I know the employer is going to be fussy about this, I will save us both time by not applying. As an employer, if I get enough who do have a convincing reason, they get to the top of the pile. If I don't get enough cover letters to find a candidate, I'll loosen my requirements. It is a bit like a dating profile, but so is the resume, so you can't avoid it. And speaking of dating, what would you think of a partner who says "I just want someone to have sex with, who'll pay for my expenses and let me not work (so should earn good money), and will take care of the children while also taking me to expensive restaurants. I really don't care about his personality." > but then what signal do you get from it? That I care enough to dissemble effectively to you? That you think I'm as interested in your company as you're going to tell me all about how you'll treat me like family? I think you're reading way too much into this. If you wrote a nice little script to solve an annoying problem at work that everyone was neglecting, it could be quite appropriate to put that in the cover letter. In 2011/2012 I independently learned pandas and spread organically to my team members such that the majority stopped writing annoying JMP scripts, that could go in the cover letter if I'm applying to a company that does numerical work. There just isn't room in the resume to highlight these kinds of things. Of course, if you have nothing like that to show for yourself after N years in the industry, that's OK, but it makes you the same as every other applicant who doesn't.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> > 2. Employers are overwhelmed with large numbers of applicants, most of whom don't meet the requested minimum requirements. > Because many/most employers are willing to hire people who don't meet the minimum requirements. Or rather, they are sloppy when they made the job posting. Therefore, applicants who actually honor the minimum requirements are at a disadvantage. Seriously—treat "requirements" as "a wishlist" is basically job hunting 101—because it works. Sucks for the employers who really, super-duper mean it when they write "requirements", but that's not most of them. > 5. Write in reasonable detail about the interview process. Will it involve Leetcode style questions? Etc. I swear to god, some companies protect this stuff like it's a state secret. I promise you that making details of your process public, or at least sharing them with applicants on first contact, won't ruin it. If FAANG can practically provide a study guide and get by, I'm pretty sure Jim Bob's House of Software or Boring Business Bank Incorporated isn't going to be ruined by providing a schedule and some guidance on the kind, difficulty, and broad domain of any technical assessments that will be performed. Meanwhile, leaving candidates with no clue what to expect when the real-world range of what happens in these interviews is unreasonably enormous, is simply shitty.
lapcat 4y ago
[deleted because my reply misunderstood the original comment]
- BeetleB 4y ago
  Google does it (or at least did). If I applied to some number (3 or 5, I forget), it will not let me apply to any more.

noirbot 4y ago

I was going to ask about Cover Letters. Why do you think that's such a big improvement, especially in the current AI Generation zone? Most of the time I've written a cover letter, it may as well have been written by an AI, or I simply recycled another one I'd written and changed the names. If you're actually going to reject someone for having a bad cover letter, does that not heavily bias against people who aren't as proficient in your chosen language?

BeetleB 4y ago
I don't care if an AI wrote it, as long as it reflects the candidate's motives and background. > If you're actually going to reject someone for having a bad cover letter, does that not heavily bias against people who aren't as proficient in your chosen language? Then get ChatGPT or a friend to write it? :-) When I say "proper", I don't mean "good grammar", but things like why you think you'd be a good candidate. Why does this job appeal to you[1]? Etc. [1] I personally don't like this one as much,
- noirbot 4y ago
  Fair, but you're always going to get a pretty bland paper. The honest answer is "so I get money and am not homeless and starving" and my background is "I do computer things so I'm not homeless and starving". Whether they'll write that out, that's roughly correct for most people. Is part of being a good employee faking that you're probably at least primarily there because they're making sure you can pay your bills? Sure, I'd rather work somewhere interesting than not, but writing a nice cover letter about how I'm interested in your project and mission goes out the door pretty quick when you come back with how you want to pay me 60k under market rate. I'm not exactly anti cover letter, but it feels like writing a dating profile. It's me putting on a bit of a guise and obscuring at least part of my true motives. Everyone involved should understand that or is hopelessly naive, but then what signal do you get from it? That I care enough to dissemble effectively to you? That you think I'm as interested in your company as you're going to tell me all about how you'll treat me like family?
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    > The honest answer is "so I get money and am not homeless and starving" For a lot, if not most, programmers, there are other ways of making a living. If you are of the mindset that there aren't, I may have some roles for you, but they would not be growth roles and some may feel exploitative, but they are not because there are no shortage of engineers who are happy with such roles. You picked SW development over other viable options for a reason. > and my background is "I do computer things so I'm not homeless and starving". The ask is what, not why. My background is that I am an engineering guy (non-CS), who pivoted at some point to SW. Your background may be different. If you've got 10 years at various companies, you do have a background other than "I do computer things". But to get to your sentiment: Yes, we all know we're all trying to make a living. The cover letter is an opportunity to speak to why this job and not any other job. If you don't have a reason, that's fine. Over 90% of the times I do not either. But that means I and you are as guilty of contributing to the "problem" of this submission as employers are. More importantly, if I know the employer is going to be fussy about this, I will save us both time by not applying. As an employer, if I get enough who do have a convincing reason, they get to the top of the pile. If I don't get enough cover letters to find a candidate, I'll loosen my requirements. It is a bit like a dating profile, but so is the resume, so you can't avoid it. And speaking of dating, what would you think of a partner who says "I just want someone to have sex with, who'll pay for my expenses and let me not work (so should earn good money), and will take care of the children while also taking me to expensive restaurants. I really don't care about his personality." > but then what signal do you get from it? That I care enough to dissemble effectively to you? That you think I'm as interested in your company as you're going to tell me all about how you'll treat me like family? I think you're reading way too much into this. If you wrote a nice little script to solve an annoying problem at work that everyone was neglecting, it could be quite appropriate to put that in the cover letter. In 2011/2012 I independently learned pandas and spread organically to my team members such that the majority stopped writing annoying JMP scripts, that could go in the cover letter if I'm applying to a company that does numerical work. There just isn't room in the resume to highlight these kinds of things. Of course, if you have nothing like that to show for yourself after N years in the industry, that's OK, but it makes you the same as every other applicant who doesn't.

yamtaddle 4y ago

> > 2. Employers are overwhelmed with large numbers of applicants, most of whom don't meet the requested minimum requirements. > Because many/most employers are willing to hire people who don't meet the minimum requirements. Or rather, they are sloppy when they made the job posting. Therefore, applicants who actually honor the minimum requirements are at a disadvantage. Seriously—treat "requirements" as "a wishlist" is basically job hunting 101—because it works. Sucks for the employers who really, super-duper mean it when they write "requirements", but that's not most of them. > 5. Write in reasonable detail about the interview process. Will it involve Leetcode style questions? Etc. I swear to god, some companies protect this stuff like it's a state secret. I promise you that making details of your process public, or at least sharing them with applicants on first contact, won't ruin it. If FAANG can practically provide a study guide and get by, I'm pretty sure Jim Bob's House of Software or Boring Business Bank Incorporated isn't going to be ruined by providing a schedule and some guidance on the kind, difficulty, and broad domain of any technical assessments that will be performed. Meanwhile, leaving candidates with no clue what to expect when the real-world range of what happens in these interviews is unreasonably enormous, is simply shitty.

lapcat 4y ago

[deleted because my reply misunderstood the original comment]

BeetleB 4y ago
Google does it (or at least did). If I applied to some number (3 or 5, I forget), it will not let me apply to any more.