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I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media

• Slava_Propanei 4y ago
  [dead]
• mixmastamyk 4y ago
  It’s ok for a 12yo to be out of the loop for a few hours. They see their friends every day at school.
  • mulmen 4y ago
    Do they? Is social media being used in morning classes to plan lunch? Will a socially isolated student even have friends? I haven't been in school for many years so I don't know the social dynamic but it isn't hard to imagine.
    • swader999 4y ago
      They do seem to live on Snapchat lately.
    • mixmastamyk 4y ago
      No, phones not allowed on in class. Might be able to do for 3 mins between classes while walking.
      • mulmen 4y ago
        Yeah and no games were allowed on my ti-83.
        • mixmastamyk 4y ago
          Do you really think kids are “planning lunch” over social media, when they sit at the same tables every day? And the cafeteria is providing it? Sounds like you’re grasping at straws to make it seem relevant. The kids here communicate via imessage and rarely during class.
          • mulmen 4y ago
            I absolutely believe that lunch seating is a manifestation of social hierarchy and that positions are determined in advance, yes.
            • mixmastamyk 4y ago
              Those things are chosen via looks, athleticism, and charisma in person. Not planned each morning via internet points, right?
              • mulmen 4y ago
                No? If the communication can happen in person it can happen online. There was no shortage of gossip on MSN Messenger when I was in school. If social media is as important to these kids as it sounds then follower count or posting style may be as important as athleticism and charisma.
                • mixmastamyk 4y ago
                  Putting BigTech profits before child welfare, nice. Another look at the linked piece may be in order? At one time, everyone thought smoking was important as well, to fit in. Now we know better.
  • sdwr 4y ago
    Kids are a lot more susceptible to feeling left out of stuff. They don't know it's all the same crap everywhere yet ;) There's also a spectrum of FOMO, from accidental to intentional. Some people feed off of excluding others.
  • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    "Oh my god, did you see what Stacy posted last night!" But your daughter missed it because "you didn't let her have an Instagram account!" It seems to me that such worries are well-founded. At best, she made the decision herself and still feels the pain of it.
    • IncRnd 4y ago
      That's letting kids parent themselves.
      • kelseyfrog 4y ago
        It's universalizing agency.
      • anigbrowl 4y ago
        You're looking at it in isolation because you are not privy to the kids' social circle. What the gp is describing is a social cost imposed on the non-participant kid. If repeated often, this will lower their status within their social circle and (much like chickens) the least popular kids become the default target for emotional abuse and bullying. If they withdraw form their social circle to cut their losses, then they potentially become a general bullying target, because they are not part of a protective circle. It's easy to be dismissive of these ideas, but there is an extensive and rigorous literature on network topology and dynamics. A good introduction with a strong quantitative/mathematical orientation is Social and Economic Networks by Matthew Jackson. Arguing on the basis of your own developmental experience in which significantly different conditions obtained (eg the non-existence/availability of social media or the internet) is equivalent to just wishing the problem away.
        • concordDance 4y ago
          The problem comes down to putting kids in forced confinement with a bunch of other kids for 6 hours a day with no way for them to escape. Mandatory "education" of teens is harmful on the net. It wastes some of the most energetic and productive hours of life while teaching very few useful skills (and those could be taught in a fraction of the time).
  • acedTrex 4y ago
    But then they are out of loop in the in person discussions that are predominantly focused on the happenings of whatever is on instagram at that time
  • heavyset_go 4y ago
    When I was in school, kids whose parents chose not to expose them to cable TV were ostracized. I can imagine something similar happening today with social media.
    • nerdponx 4y ago
      I definitely felt left out not having an N64 or Playstation growing up, but in hindsight I didn't actually miss much. What stings at the time is the feeling that you're missing out.
• metalliqaz 4y ago
  Same. It have no idea what I'm going to do about it.
  • theGnuMe 4y ago
    So we know that social media causes depression and anxiety and we know that kids will want to be on social media so we have to teach them the skills to regulate their emotions. Most importantly that they can identify when they need to ask for help and will ask for it. We need to normalize asking for help. Right now kids can learn these skills in therapy but that is not the only place those skills should be taught or reinforced. Schools for example are a good place for that. Remember that cliques in school were reinforced by the telephone and just like the game of telephone a lot gets lost in communication. Social media is an extension of that.
    • metalliqaz 4y ago
      I don't even have the skills to regulate my emotions
      • theGnuMe 4y ago
        So I guess you know where to begin then and that is with you.
• barbazoo 4y ago
  It must be frustrating to see this problem approaching and not knowing what to do. I wonder if at some point the only way out is to radically change one's family's lifestyle. Maybe homeschooling, very limited technology at home, living in a community with like-minded people, something like that?
  • flerchin 4y ago
    Let's find a solution that does not involve expanding the Amish model.
    • SQueeeeeL 4y ago
      The Amish kinda slap, they didn't invent addictive social media, put a game show host in charge of nuclear weapons, or have a bunch of corporations change their icons to rainbow icons while still being shitty. They literally realized 300 years ago that they should opt out of the nonsense America descended into
      • bavila 4y ago
        > The Amish kinda slap For anyone else who was confused by this: https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/slap/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/slap/
        • TheGeminon 4y ago
          Slap means really good in this context, e.g. "this song really slaps". This makes me want to make a generational/chronological slang chart now
          • bavila 4y ago
            Thanks, just edited my post to link to the definition. Guess I'd fall under the generation that would have said "rock" instead (although the Amish most definitely do not rock).
      • 4y ago
• neogodless 4y ago
  Disclaimer: Not a parent, did not grow up during the era of social media (and my own childhood experiences cannot be extrapolated!) As a kid, I was bullied, outcast, left out. Oddly enough, I don't think I was depressed. Sure, I was sad sometimes. But given that my options didn't include doing things with kids from school, I did things on my own. Fortunately for me, I also had access to a (relatively) safe outdoors to explore. Or if the weather wasn't cooperating, I would play with toys inside. But it sounds like social isolation can lead to mental illness/depression, so I don't know if enduring that is an acceptable alternative to the near certain mental illness that being part of the internet-connected social scene seems to cause. Should we redirect our attention to figuring out how to keep kids mentally healthy despite likely social isolation that's going to happen no matter what? Is that possible?
  • warner25 4y ago
    This is an interesting thought. It sounds like your childhood was similar to mine. A big turning point in my life was finally realizing or accepting, at 15 or 16 years old, that it was OK to not be popular or be part of a big group of friends. It was OK to have just a few close relationships. It was OK to sit quietly by myself in the cafeteria during lunch and do my homework if my few friends didn't have the same lunch period. Ironically, I started to have more conventional social success after that, in addition to doing much better academically after a rough freshman and sophomore year of high school. I've shared that advice with younger people, but not my own kids yet. I don't know if it helped, or if you can really teach that.
• shagie 4y ago
  While the generations are a bit dated - https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-... > Social media creates a world for Lucy where A) what everyone else is doing is very out in the open, B) most people present an inflated version of their own existence, and C) the people who chime in the most about their careers are usually those whose careers (or relationships) are going the best, while struggling people tend not to broadcast their situation. This leaves Lucy feeling, incorrectly, like everyone else is doing really well, only adding to her misery: > (image) > So that’s why Lucy is unhappy, or at the least, feeling a bit frustrated and inadequate. In fact, she’s probably started off her career perfectly well, but to her, it feels very disappointing. > ... > Ignore everyone else. Other people’s grass seeming greener is no new concept, but in today’s image crafting world, other people’s grass looks like a glorious meadow. The truth is that everyone else is just as indecisive, self-doubting, and frustrated as you are, and if you just do your thing, you’ll never have any reason to envy others. --- Thus, the "set reasonable expectations" along with "realize that what is on social media is a constructed reality reflecting the masks people wear in that environment." The "what people see on Facebook" is almost as scripted as any romcom movie - just that most people realize that the movie is a constructed fabrication yet tend to expect that they can live day to day the same as what people project into the constructed reality of social media.
  • nerdponx 4y ago
    This article is the classic "millennials are sad because they have unrealistically high expectations" drivel that I thought we had buried for good. Even for 2013 it seems pretty trashy. Lucy doesn't think she's unusually wonderful, and to assume so is completely unfair to Lucy. Lucy was told over and over and over that all she needed to do was go to college and work hard at anything somewhat respectable, and financial stability and personal comfort would follow. She only ever wanted a decent liberal arts education, and after that a decent career. You know who fed her that BS? Her delusional parents. Yes, it's easy to get unrealistic expectations from social media. But that's not the point of the article, for anyone tempted to click and read.
    • 4y ago
• giantg2 4y ago
  They wouldn't be out of the loop if enough other girls did the same thing. They you'd have your own group.
  • bazmattaz 4y ago
    Let’s be honest though. That would simply never work. You’d have to get a group of teen girls to make a pact to all be out of the loop. Not one of them can sneak a peek at social media! Knowing what teens are like I’d say that experiment would last a week. Social media is addictive probably even more so for teens and fomo is real
• ericlewis 4y ago
  I have witnessed the same with my wife, we only have one girl.. the only thing I have imagined could work is keeping her busy and teaching her how to be attracted to decent communities that may not necessarily be who she goes to school with. edit: but I have literally no clue what I am going to do, I have like another 5 years or so.
  • bazmattaz 4y ago
    What do you mean you have witnessed the same? Do you mean a decline in mental health?
    • ericlewis 4y ago
      Yes, sorry. But she now uses it all a lot less after getting on depression meds and being able to clearly see it’s impact on her mental health.
• austinl 4y ago
  I once sat next to a dean of private school on a plane—she mentioned that the ~100 parents that sent their children to the school signed an agreement that they would restrict their children's access to social media until 9th grade. I have no idea how well it was adhered to or enforced, but it surprised me that the parents of the school and the dean were trying to collectively organize action around this issue to prevent the problems described above. I had never heard of that before.
  • mcbuilder 4y ago
    And at 9th grade it's a free for all? Looking back the high school years would have been the worst for my own self esteem, angst, etc. Glad none of it was recorded. :)
    • throwaway1777 4y ago
      Maybe, but middle school is often thought to be the worst. Kids are so young at that age but also smart enough to be exposed to all kinds of things.
      • dilznoofus 4y ago
        As undeveloped mentally as highschoolers are, they have years more development more than middleschoolers Middleschoolers are suddenly blasted with hormones, and are basically accelerating at breakneck speed. Everyone's body is changing wildly, you're thinking and feeling new things every day, and it's all a total mindfuck. By highschool, the hypernovelty has worn off. Yes, they're still developing and figuring things out, but it's not quite as much of the surreal existential body-horror that middleschool is.
      • yamtaddle 4y ago
        There's a slump in classroom performance and psychological well-being around 6th-8th consistently-observed enough that it's got one or more names in the fields of education and psychology ("middle school slump", "middle school malaise", "middle school plunge", et c.) Mention it to a teacher and they'll likely know what you're talking about.
• prepend 4y ago
  As a parent to a 12 year old girl, I’ve been fighting the “no social media” fight since she requested at 9. Every single one of her friends have social media and I think it is negative to be isolated in that way. But I also notice that she seems to have positive benefits over her friends, but of course it’s tough to measure. It’s strange to me because I’ve talked about this literature and whatnot with other parents and they just shrug and say that their kid won’t abuse it and will withstand the negative effects. Of course, many of these are posting on social media quite a bit themselves. It’s tough for parents but I’m encouraged by more evidence on this subject and hope that there’s soon public health guidance about when to allow social media.
  • theshrike79 4y ago
    This is really baffling to me, because social media sites have an age limit of 13 in most western countries. ...and this is by the companies themselves, if they are found out to be "marketing to children", they get hit with a whole another set of legal issues. Epic just got hit with this because of Fortnite and has to pay over $200M fines. The only issue is that there is zero oversight on the age limit, there is no way to report underage users on social media sites - and even if there is, nothing happens until someone goes through the courts.
    • lozenge 4y ago
      You definitely can report an underage user.
      • theshrike79 4y ago
        I tried to do it on WhatsApp (age limit 16 in the EU), but guess what? You can only report YOUR OWN CHILD: https://faq.whatsapp.com/695318248185629 https://faq.whatsapp.com/695318248185629 Other Meta properties are better at this though.
        • MertsA 4y ago
          > if you're not the parent of this child, then we strongly recommend that you encourage a parent to contact us using the instructions above. Given that the instructions are to prove ownership over the phone number as well as trying to at least somewhat link that to an underage child how exactly could this reasonably be accomplished by someone other than the parent? If you know enough to be confident that a given account is linked to a minor then there's basically zero chance that you won't also know of a way to contact their parents about it. Given the e2e nature of WhatsApp any other implementation would be akin to the "But think about the children!!!" reactionary calls to ban e2e encryption.
• chiefalchemist 4y ago
  In mid 2022 I started doing what I called Facebookless Fridays. Eventually that progressed to also on a Saturday afteroon-ish I'd update my status to "See You Noon Tuesday"* and then not do FB til noon Tue, in addition to FL Fridays. It was odd at first. But then it's liberating in the sense you realize how much junkfood for the mind and soul it is. Mind you I'm not a 12 y/o but perhaps if it was a group / family effort you can pull back enough to develop healthier perspectives not based on SM and only SM? * Yes, it's any intentional play on see you next Tuesday ;)
• samstave 4y ago
  As the Father of Three girls ; I propose a screen-age limit. Just like the drinking limit, and I think that certain sites should have a limit of 10 years old. Only educational sites and videos should be available to anyone under 10. I KNOW this is a horrendously hard problem to solve - but kids should EARN sceen time by 'playing outside time' or something. Kids born to cities are fucked. kids born to dense 'no-nature'access' environs are fucked. But growing up in the forrests of california and being a latch-key kid in the 80s was a godsend to my imagination and thus my IQ.
  • autoexec 4y ago
    > Only educational sites and videos should be available to anyone under 10. I don't think you could enforce this anyway, but it's also a terrible idea. I can't imagine what my life would have been like if my local library or bookseller felt like you do about the internet and I was trapped reading fiction way below by level. The solution to the problem isn't censorship and holding inquisitive children back, it's parenting and guiding children safely while they explore their interests and the world they live in.
    • deleted 4y ago
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    • bart_spoon 4y ago
      This assumes that children are “held back” by not having unlimited access to screens. It also equates books with the internet which is absurd. Social media, and the internet as we know it, have only been a part of children’s lives for about 15 years, less than a single generation. The idea that it is now an indispensable part of their development, and that depriving them of it is going to harm them us utterly ridiculous. As if every generation before now consists of drooling ape-men that could have been what this current generation of apparent Uber-children will become if only they too had access to TikTok and YouTube.
      • autoexec 4y ago
        It assumes that children would be "held back" by not being able to access content they are mature enough for until they reach an arbitrary age determined by someone other than the child or the child's parents. Nowhere did I suggest that children should have "unlimited access to screens". In fact I explicitly mentioned that it should be parents who ensure that their children are exposed to things safely. I have no doubt that the children growing up with access to the internet (including youtube and twitter) had greater opportunity to be better educated, more exposed to art and culture, and to be better prepared for their life as an adult in the world than the children who grew up without the internet. Those things were made much easier by having access to the internet. I say that as someone who grew up without internet access for many years. I know not having access to the internet we have today as a young child placed limitations on what I could have reasonably attained. That doesn't mean we should set every child lose on the internet without any thought to what they're seeing. Also, the internet is very much like books, but I'd remind you that libraries and even bookstores offer many other forms of media as well.
• somethoughts 4y ago
  One strategy that should help is to load them up on extracurriculars. Keep them busy with extra math tutoring (russian school of math, kumon, etc.) and physically active in a healthy way with enough sleep (swimming, track, soccer). That way there is not a lot of dwell time to be depressed about missing out on stuff. Also taking away privileges due to not passing grades, not keeping up with math tutoring, etc. is a great way to get them out of the social media loop. It gives them a highly plausible and relatable reason to not be active on these platforms (i.e. uggh, I "wish" I could have seen that instagram post but my parents are soo strict!). Having a big important swim meet or soccer game early Saturday morning is a great reason for not being at Friday's drinking party (i.e. I would have been too tired to go anyway).
  • andrewflnr 4y ago
    So much for the "play based childhood", then. (And no, of course assigned sports don't count)
    • oblio 4y ago
      Is he wrong though? If the other kids aren't really playing, what's the point? Play for the sake of playing toxic social media social games?
    • jrumbut 4y ago
      In another thread I mentioned the need for organized (in the sense of same place, same time) unstructured activity. Gather at the basketball court, if practice or a game break out that's good, if not that's OK. It seems like everyone wins in that scenario, it's healthy but playful and low stress while accommodating parents' need for scheduling. Is such a thing common? I don't hear about it much.
      • somethoughts 4y ago
        Agree, its unfortunate that most of the after school sports program start getting to be like prepping for professional/collegiate level sports once they reach high school. Middle school sports and junior varsity high school sports coupled with math tutoring is probably enough to keep them busy enough and out of trouble/off social media.
• nerdponx 4y ago
  This effect is just as true for adults as for kids. I largely lost touch with the music scene I was involved in because I didn't want to do everything on Facebook, and now Instagram.
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• cassac 4y ago
  Part of it is never letting them start early in the first place. Stay strong and don’t give in. The old saying “If they were your real friends they wouldn’t care…” is more true than it is cliche. Try to make them understand that.
  • waboremo 4y ago
    Or, instead of creating hyper rebellious kids who seek to go against your strong absolute rules - talk to them. Get them bored of social media. Explain what's really going on, what different forms of social media exist, how to talk to your friends directly in a safe way rather than go through the drudge of Instagram. What limits should exist when using any of these communication platforms. They'll understand. Often we want to protect our family through rigid rules, but all that does is make them want to pull away more.
    • cassac 4y ago
      Having absolute rules doesn’t mean having rebellious kids. I have an absolute rule to look both ways before crossing the street and nobody had ever rebelled against that. But I 100% agree you do have to explain and you do have to eat your own dog food and try not to be too much of a hypocrite. They need to see you believe it yourself. And try not to lie with tall tales. I think every time a non life threatening absolute statement is proven false by experience they will lose trust. I read or heard once that if you always told your child to put a coat on before they have actually experienced the cold they naturally don’t understand why they need it and will resist wearing one. But if you let them experience the cold and involve them in the thought process they will want to put a coat on. “Let’s see how it feels outside? Oooo it’s cold! What should we do?” Etc etc. I’ve tried to do that with most things (within reason and when applicable) and I think it gives them more confidence and understanding. Like the whole tell/show/include thing. The more experiences like this where you proved to be right the more they trust you even when the disagree.
      • doubled112 4y ago
        Some people really just need to find out for themselves. All the talking it through will not convince them. Everybody is different. Even between my two boys, one is going to do it anyway, and one will be too busy thinking about it to do it. Speaking of different, I do remember friends as a kid that went through a phase where they believed "no, they won't hit me or else". The "or else" was the driver getting in trouble, being sued, going to prison, something. I never thought any of that would fix me, and continued to look.
• timst4 4y ago
  Middle School educator here. I can assure you that your daughters will not be alone when it comes to a moratorium on social media. However, the girls they may very well want to be friends with may be very much into social media and group chats. My advice is to be firm but also take steps to create social opportunities for your daughters. I have a 12yo and I host board game nights with amazing snack trays. I help her to play video games socially using air console. You have to play defense. These apps are deleterious to your daughters self worth. I’ve seen too many hospitalizations and suicides to believe otherwise. But you also have to play offense. They will need guidance on how to be social in a world coopted by manipulation and deceit. Parenting these days is challenging but it’s possible to raise girls who thrive without phones.
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  • haydar_ai 4y ago
    Is it correct for me to assume that you have your daughter without a smartphone right? How is she communicating day-to-day with her peers in school then?
  • lll-o-lll 4y ago
    Thanks a ton for this. As a father of a pre-teen daughter who begs for a smartphone every day, I’ve been anxious about how I’m going to deal with this situation. I’d only been thinking in terms of defence, and this article had me really worried. Planning for how to create the social opportunities is just as important. Defence and Offence. I really like it!
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    • andrei_says_ 4y ago
      iOS has excellent parental control tools, down to time allowance on per app level. Of course a decision to use restriction would ideally be one made together with the child so that they can truly consent.
• e40 4y ago
  You've hit on the conundrum. Damned if you do join the social network (for the known reasons) and damned if you don't (isolation from friends). Until a major of parents remove access, this will always be the problem. Btw, I had the same issue with games and my son. I could not let him play, but then he wouldn't have had access to the sole socialization his peer group had. Both decisions were bad, but one was worse. Letting him play video games was the least bad choice. Interestingly, we've had discussions about this, now that he's an adult and (I believe) he agrees with this analysis.
  • NaN1352 4y ago
    Video games and social media are two entirely different things. Some of my best times with my friends is LAN parties as well as going together at demo parties, traveling, coding together. Frankly, a ban on videogames is stupid as hell. Even today on discord and over the network, it?s stil entirely unlike social media. /smh
    • e40 4y ago
      I agree they are different, but they definitely share some things. Moderation with video games is hard for young people. Same for social media. That's why I mentioned it. And, I wasn't suggesting a ban on video games.
      • Shocka1 4y ago
        I have a four year old boy who absolutely loves games, just like I did at a young age. Any and all advice is welcome in handling this, so I appreciate your comments. My current strategy has been steering him towards games that require a bit of thinking - like Kerbel Space Program, flight simulators, Kings Quest, etc. He gets to play a little Roblox as well, but only in very small doses. I have to help him a lot with them right now, but once he starts reading I'm hoping he'll choose these types of games on his own. In the warmer months this is easier to manage because he loves playing outside, but it can sometimes be challenging in winter.
• ljm 4y ago
  I would contest one point in the article, and I admit this is dependent on where you live: > But social media is very different because it transforms social life for everyone, even for those who don’t use social media, whereas sugar consumption just harms the consumer. In countries with single-payer healthcare (or socialised healthcare), it's not true that it harms only the consumer. If it turns into obesity, diabetes, or other medical conditions, then it may transform social life by virtue of adding pressure to the healthcare system. This is a rephrasing of the argument against smoking, where the argument that was smoking harms nobody else, and the counter was that smokers created a healthcare burden. Arguably this is the same case in insurance-based countries, but the payment structure keeps the onus on the individual, not the overall system. The point being that social media has damaging externalities no matter how it's framed.
  • AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
    [dead]
  • thfuran 4y ago
    >This is a rephrasing of the argument against smoking, where the argument that was smoking harms nobody else, and the counter was that smokers created a healthcare burden. Smoking also has much more direct second hand effects from releasing smoke into the area of the smoker. Poor diet lack such effects.
    • ljm 4y ago
      Which most people would agree - smoking in public is not a personal activity; but this debate raged on throughout the 90s and early 00s. The secondary effect is on the healthcare system some time after the fact, which is the same for sugar, alcohol, smoking...where it is a new generation that is funding the care. I don't mean to distract from the main point, but sugar is not an innocent example, especially when lobbying happened to use sugar in favour of fat.
  • denton-scratch 4y ago
    > In countries with single-payer healthcare (or socialised healthcare), it's not true that it harms only the consumer. This is a fallacy. Public health measures benefit some individuals more than others; but everyone benefits. Free treatment catches TB infections, for example, which occur overwhelmingly among homeless people. We're all better off if there are no homeless people wandering around with TB. I'm glad my neighbours all benefit from the NHS, and that I'm not surrounded by sick people.
• sayrer 4y ago
  I can recommend the book “American Girls” by Nancy Jo Sales. I don’t have any daughters, but I’ve worked at some big social media companies, and this was required reading at one of them. The boss there did have daughters, but it wasn’t only so we would understand. It was so we wouldn’t build Trust and Safety headaches in the first place.
• lettergram 4y ago
  My parents always told me “we can only control what goes on in our house” I’d have that attitude — show your children this study and explain why they can’t use it in your home. “I won’t support making you mentally ill” In reality, your kids will likely subvert you to some degree. That said if you set the clear boundaries and alternatives it might not be bad. Particularly, if you’re upfront and explain. I personally send my kids to a school that where we signed an agreement for no tech in the classroom (or generally limit it at home). At the very least, that ensures kids can be kids at school. After that; I suggest getting them in activities and keeping them active. In many ways connectivity is great, it’s the algorithmic enhancement and broadcasting that’s at issue. I doubt there’s mental health issues related to texting one-on-one for instance (or very limited issues).
• AndrewKemendo 4y ago
  I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to have social media :)* After reading the article, I still believe that I should be allowed to have social media for several reasons. First of all, the article stated that people using social media moderately (half an hour to one and a half hours a day) had little to no decline in their mental health, compared to a large mental health decline in those using it a lot (3-5+ hours a day), and with the limit on my phone, I would be using it minimally, especially because I use a lot of my phone time daily to listen to music (like 5 [REDACTED], which I am listening to right now) and to text my friends, so I would only use it for 20 or so minutes a day, which is very low. Another thing that the article mentioned is that people these days who do not have social media may feel excluded or left out, and may even miss things because they don’t have social media, which can lead to a decline in their mental health as well. It was also mentioned that not every social media user’s mental health is impacted, especially those who use it in moderation. Yet another point was that people will compare themselves to other people on there. In case you hadn’t already noticed, I don’t really do that. I do find people pretty, but I don’t usually compare myself to them. Plus, most of them are significantly older than me, so I don’t expect myself to look like them anyway. I believe that using social media could actually have greater benefits for me, such as being able to record Tiktok dances with my friends, or messaging people on Snapchat. I could also follow my friends and then help support whatever they do (for example, one of my friends has an account for [REDACTED]). Also, studies have shown that when people don’t get to do something as a child/teenager isn’t allowed to do or have something in moderation, they are more likely to do or have it in excess as an adult.
  • throw_pm23 4y ago
    That's a very well-argued response, congratulations. I will only take issue with the last sentence. I don't know the studies, but most of my friends from school who were smoking in moderation back then, ended up as heavy smokers as adults. Those who avoided it completely (partly due to stricter parenting) largely seem to stay smoking-free in later life.
• lumb63 4y ago
  I’m not a parent yet, but I worry the same thing. It’s also bigger than parenting. I know a lot of folks in their mid-late 20s who suffer from self esteem problems due to social media. In addition to the overt and obvious depression, there is a constant “not-good-enough”-ness and sense of nihilism that comes with having the best of the best in hobbies, the most social, most active, etc., people shoved down your throat day after day.
  • fleddr 4y ago
    I would add that beyond the effects of it crushing one's self-image, it also messes with your world view. Social media presents the world as nothing but doom and gloom whilst in reality it's not that bad.
• luckylion 4y ago
  It may be a bit cynical, but the other option might be to make sure they're validated by social media, not depressed. Pay for photo shootings and makeup so they look larger than life and get lots of likes. Do that enough and they'll be the ones with the seemingly perfect lives, body and beauty that others get depressed by while liking their pictures, and thus sending them positive signals that will improve their self-esteem. Might trigger some narcissism issues, but that might be an acceptable trade-off. In the end, it's a game like private schools and universities. You're not the ones making the rules, but if you want your children to succeed, playing by the idiotic rules might be your safest bet.
• dudul 4y ago
  There are schools where phones are forbidden until high school. If you have the means and the problem is important to you try to find one. You can't pick your kids friends but you can do your best to curate the pool they are picking from.
• fleddr 4y ago
  I'm childless so it may come across as arrogant to give any advise. One thing I learned from observing the teenagers of my friends is that they don't want this either. We're adults and talking and a bunch of kids sit in a row on the couch, playing with their iPads. For hours on end. And yet they hear everything you say. They're paying attention. And when you show a genuine interest them just by asking a few question, the iPad is quickly ignored. That's a sign of hope. They want to engage and be engaged in something more meaningful. The iPad fills a void. This artificial divide of the situation between adults and children does not help. Sending them outside does not help either because nobody else is outside. Engage with them. They have a bunch of free time on their hands but no meaning to fill it with. You can't stop the draw to the device unless that time is filled with things that makes them forget the device. It doesn't take much. A conversation, a board game, a small game of sports in the park, whatever possible for you. I would admit though that the situation for girls is not this simple. They will be dragged into a games of thrones style social battle of self-image/worth.
  • _carbyau_ 4y ago
    While I like your comment I would also couch it in a context that I'd guess most parents are familiar with. How your kids act when "outsiders/non-family" are around can be different. Simply the fact you are NOT from the immediate so-intimately-familiar-they-know-the-smell-of-your-farts family means that what you say and do has novelty and therefore engagement right there. Even if you are a friend who drops by every day. Not saying that parents shouldn't engage - we should. But it isn't easy keeping it fresh from inside the fart bubble. :-)
    • fleddr 4y ago
      Very fair point and agree.
  • unrealp 4y ago
    I think addiction is about meaning. Addiction activities are always meaningful activities. May not be pleasurable activities but always meaningful. To quit a meaningful activity, you need to replace with another meaningful activity. like exercise, help someone, do something good..whatever is meaningful to you.
• 2devnull 4y ago
  As someone who years ago decided to never use Facebook, I can confirm that abstaining from social media is socially damaging. It’s a bit like the automobile. You can’t opt out of the technological society. I suppose the silver lining is that social media apps aren’t owned and controlled by totalitarian communist regimes, or at least not all of them.
• zarkov99 4y ago
  I have a 13 year old who just got a phone. I do not think things are as hopeless as you seem to believe. My daughter mocks social media (including my own use of it) and, so far, wants no part of it. That is, I think, largely because her mother and I have been educating her since she could use a computer on how stupid and vapid social media is. As far as I know, none of her friends has any social media accounts either, I believe for similar reasons.
  • sibeliuss 4y ago
    I don't mean to dismiss your trust here, but this attitude is simply denial.
    • JenrHywy 4y ago
      I don't know about that. I have teenagers (boys, though) who has no interest in social medial or alcohol. In many ways they're far more sensible than I was at their age.
• Alex3917 4y ago
  > As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. As a father of two girls who also runs a social network, this article is bullshit. They’re only considering social media that fundamentally looks and feels like Facebook. That’s like saying all outdoor activities are extremely dangerous, when only looking at wingsuit base jumpers.
  • sibeliuss 4y ago
    You clearly didn't read the article, because what they wrote mostly about was... Instagram.
    • Alex3917 4y ago
      Which looks and feels like Facebook.
      • raxxorraxor 4y ago
        And is owned by Facebook.
• wonderwonder 4y ago
  My kids play video games with their friends and while my 9 year old gives as good as he gets my 11 year old is always down for a couple hours if someone says something mean to him on their group chat. He is pretty much unable to ignore trash talk and takes it personally. There is no way I am going to let him get on social media until he is in 10th grade at least. Even then I am going to let him know its monitored and probably restricted. I trust him completely. I let him ride his bike to the park by himself, or with friends, go fishing, go to 7-11 etc. Social media is the devil though and seems tailor made to wreck kids self esteem. Heck it even turns previously rational adults into conspiracy following hateful loons.
• rayiner 4y ago
  As Haidt points out, the problem isn’t social media per se but how social media amplifies toxic culture that already exists: https://www.thecoddling.com/ https://www.thecoddling.com/ You can’t realistically ban phones, but you can control the culture they’re exposed to by where you live and send your kids to school.
• logicchains 4y ago
  It's never too late to teach them some values. The vast majority of religions and philosophies teach that striving for material things and to satisfy the ego is not healthy, you could research some of the arguments behind it and educate your girls on the harms of comparing themselves to other people. Teach them to value other people (and themselves) by their moral character, not their material possessions or achievements.
• peanuty1 4y ago
  Just curious, how has social media "eroded your wife's mental health"?
• silisili 4y ago
  Don't be afraid to be the bad guy. Sometimes, as a parent, that is exactly your job. My child will not have social media for as long as she lives in this house. The interesting thing to me was her reaction, which actually may mirror yours based on your writing. She said she had no interest in Facebook, because she sees how much time mom wastes on it and doesn't like how she acts. That was before our come to jesus moment as husband and wife... which I also highly recommend. But you'll have to be the bad guy again.
• throwaway2474 4y ago
  Controversial take: why not teach your daughters to embrace and win at the social media game? It’s not going away, and being able to successfully navigate that world is going to be a tangible advantage to them later in life. Self worth and happiness, despite what we might want to believe, are largely tied to social status. As parents it may be kinder to help our kids succeed at the game rather than pretend it doesn’t exist.
  • raxxorraxor 4y ago
    It isn't universal. Some want to become superstars and famous and some do not. Acceptance with your position in society is more conductive to happiness. But social media very strongly underlines another reality. Not everyone can become a star, stardom is often very short lived, stars may not be the happiest people, fans might not be the nicest. Those smart enough to last a long time in public would probably be able to tell you a lot about necessary the sacrifices too. But the fear of missing something or being left out is probably exactly what drives anxiety, especially in those that might have a bit more self-awareness. Parents could support social media use, of course, but I would compare that to putting children up for a beauty contest.
• cauliflower99 4y ago
  A friend of mine has two girls in their teenage years. They have a ban on certain websites and have to get permission to add new social media apps to their phone. They regularly discuss these topics which is an important point I think. My friend reports that they laugh at their friends who are obsessed with their phones and do not have any of the anxiety problems that are rampant in their classrooms. As a father of a young girl, this gives me hope for her future. I think parents need to step up here. The excuse of "everyone else does it so I'm not going to introduce any discipline" is an irresponsible decision on the parent's behalf. I little more thought, effort and discipline could go a long way. Our job is to prepare our kids for the real world and maximise their opportunities (which anxiety and depression destroys). We are not here to be their friends.
• d1sxeyes 4y ago
  I have to agree with you that it's terrifying. I have a young son (under a year), and likely by the time I need to handle this myself, the challenges I will face will be very different. That said, there's some good news buried in the footnotes which gives me quite a lot of hope. "We found that controlling for [psychological variables such as negative attitudes about school and closeness with parents] heavily suppressed the relationship between social media use and poor mental health." Although it's almost a throwaway comment, my reading of it is that parents are not helpless. The effect is 'heavily suppressed', meaning that these variations have a significant impact. It is not a huge jump to conclude that there are steps that we as parents can do to mitigate the negative impact of social media, especially by being involved, engaged, emotionally available and supportive (and whatever else might be hiding behind this other 'psychological variables' mentionedsorr). It's also important to consider that we don't know why the mental health outcomes are so negative (as others have highlighted). However, there are some obvious likely causes of mental health issues caused by social media: - 'Andrew Tate'-like personalities, who intentionally use controversy and creating feelings of inadequacy to drive engagement - 'Dream body' type posters, who are not necessarily intentionally creating feelings of inadequacy, but nevertheless, they do by deliberately showing off parts of themselves or their lives that others cannot reasonably or easily attain (designer clothes/bags/shoes, expensive holidays, etc.) - 'The Joneses' type posters (which actually I think most people end up being themselves), whose posts are innocent in motivation, but create feelings of inadequacy by only showing one facet of their lives. For example, photos of the family laughing together, dogs playing in fields, beers in a pub garden in the sunshine. For me, my approach today would be: - Small groups of 2-5 people are fine. - For larger groups, create limited 'societies'. Class groups, church groups, scout groups, etc. Only allow my kids to be part of groups that they *really* belong to, and which are moderated to ensure that only people who really belong to those groups are able to join. - No 'reposts' or content which is not original. Only share photos which you've taken yourself (or which have been taken by someone within the group). Links to external services like YouTube, Spotify, etc. should be possible but limited to those where parental controls can be implemented. - Community moderators. Either parents or trusted community members should in place as moderators to manage harmful discussions. It seems as though there is an absolute minefield to navigate going forward, and I wish you (and myself!) the best of luck with it.