4 ms·

>The idea that we can create some sort of libertarian utopia seems blind to the fact that humans are inherently social. Attempting to explain this irrefutable,

>The idea that we can create some sort of libertarian utopia seems blind to the fact that humans are inherently social. Attempting to explain this irrefutable, unquestionable fact to a libertarian is like trying to explain sports to me: they ain't interested and can't understand.

cld8483 4y ago
That really is a perfect analogy.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
They aren't stupid or dense, it's just that their stated motivation isn't their true one most of the time. They "get" this, but the actual goal is just to remove power from states and put it in the hands of individual property owners so that they are more free to exert it over people with less power.
- 41amxn41 4y ago
  Because the state never overreaches and exerts power over people. Jesus christ. Try living in China for a month
- cmh89 4y ago
  I think it's really generous to think that they actually understand that libertarian-ism wont work. Your average libertarian is poor, usually rural and not prosperous. They are generally just marks to the very few libertarians who would benefit from de-regulation and less government overisght.
- slg 4y ago
  For example, is this article about someone with generational trauma using that as inspiration to help prevent future atrocities or is it a puff piece about a rich guy who is motivated by a desire to keep all his assets and landed on the "unseizable property" angle as a more successful story to sell investors now that the sector he heavily invested in has crashed?
  - alephnerd 4y ago
    It's a PR piece. Most articles that revolve around a single persona are those. They aren't that expensive to produce and pay for either.
- rocket_surgeron 4y ago
  This is probably true but in my experience most libertarians are just bigots who think wrapping themselves in a freedom cloak shields their bigotry from criticism. Thinking more there is probably a great deal of overlap between the people who fit my definition of libertarianism and those who fit yours.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  I was definitely that stupid and dense during my libertarian phase. It took me a while to start generating counterexamples to the "property rights promote individual liberty" idea, though of course once I started the trickle quickly became a flood, I saw the floodwater all around me, and the gimmick was up. Today I would fully agree with you that the most experienced "libertarians" are actually conservatives dressed up in the clothing of freedom, but there's a sucker born every minute, and the key to bumping this particular sucker out of this particular ideology was not an accusation of crypto-conservatism (of which I heard plenty) but rather a frontal attack on the core ideas of libertarianism as I understood them.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Yes this is true. I really struggle to find balance with this one. On one hand demanding to be treated as if they are representing views in good faith when they are not is one of the most effective and exhausting strategies of the far right, libertarians included. So I try to identify it and refuse to. But on the other hand yes, surely a lot of self-identified libertarians "on the ground" are being honest about their understanding and motivations, and it's shitty to dismiss their positions as disingenuous when they aren't. I doubt it's possible to always get it right, and I'm not comfortable choosing one of those two errors to make exclusively. So I do my best and ask for forgiveness when I get it wrong.

cld8483 4y ago

That really is a perfect analogy.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

They aren't stupid or dense, it's just that their stated motivation isn't their true one most of the time. They "get" this, but the actual goal is just to remove power from states and put it in the hands of individual property owners so that they are more free to exert it over people with less power.

41amxn41 4y ago
Because the state never overreaches and exerts power over people. Jesus christ. Try living in China for a month
cmh89 4y ago
I think it's really generous to think that they actually understand that libertarian-ism wont work. Your average libertarian is poor, usually rural and not prosperous. They are generally just marks to the very few libertarians who would benefit from de-regulation and less government overisght.
slg 4y ago
For example, is this article about someone with generational trauma using that as inspiration to help prevent future atrocities or is it a puff piece about a rich guy who is motivated by a desire to keep all his assets and landed on the "unseizable property" angle as a more successful story to sell investors now that the sector he heavily invested in has crashed?
- alephnerd 4y ago
  It's a PR piece. Most articles that revolve around a single persona are those. They aren't that expensive to produce and pay for either.
rocket_surgeron 4y ago
This is probably true but in my experience most libertarians are just bigots who think wrapping themselves in a freedom cloak shields their bigotry from criticism. Thinking more there is probably a great deal of overlap between the people who fit my definition of libertarianism and those who fit yours.
jjoonathan 4y ago
I was definitely that stupid and dense during my libertarian phase. It took me a while to start generating counterexamples to the "property rights promote individual liberty" idea, though of course once I started the trickle quickly became a flood, I saw the floodwater all around me, and the gimmick was up. Today I would fully agree with you that the most experienced "libertarians" are actually conservatives dressed up in the clothing of freedom, but there's a sucker born every minute, and the key to bumping this particular sucker out of this particular ideology was not an accusation of crypto-conservatism (of which I heard plenty) but rather a frontal attack on the core ideas of libertarianism as I understood them.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Yes this is true. I really struggle to find balance with this one. On one hand demanding to be treated as if they are representing views in good faith when they are not is one of the most effective and exhausting strategies of the far right, libertarians included. So I try to identify it and refuse to. But on the other hand yes, surely a lot of self-identified libertarians "on the ground" are being honest about their understanding and motivations, and it's shitty to dismiss their positions as disingenuous when they aren't. I doubt it's possible to always get it right, and I'm not comfortable choosing one of those two errors to make exclusively. So I do my best and ask for forgiveness when I get it wrong.