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Tip outs are better in bougie joints frequented by tech workers. This isnt a contradiction to your main point, maybe more of a damning with faint praise if any

Tip outs are better in bougie joints frequented by tech workers. This isnt a contradiction to your main point, maybe more of a damning with faint praise if anything.

diceduckmonk 4y ago
Affluent people existed before Google and tech workers.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
> Tip outs are better in bougie joints frequented by tech workers. This sounds a little trickle-downy. Why not strive for an economy where people doing important work like feeding their communities just... Don't need to be tipped? I know it sounds crazy in today-terms, but if it makes any sense, it makes tipping culture look like more of a problem than a boon to anyone receiving the tips.
- mikrl 4y ago
  Servers love tip out. They can make hundreds a night and possibly even what a junior SWE can (pro rata) if they’re good. If you want fierce resistance from servers - ask them to split tips more equitably with the kitchen - offer to abolish the tip system altogether and just pay them $15/h flat, hell even $25/h
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    That servers love tip outs today doesn't necessarily mean it's an absolutely good model, or that they will be grateful for it in say 20 years when they can no longer succeed in these types of jobs. I'm not claiming it should never be a thing. I just wonder if we should collectively accept it and want it to be part of our economy and how our communities function. I have had many friends who do well as servers (and indeed, one earning more than I did was a junior SWE), but it doesn't seem typical, nor does it seem sustainable. The restaurant industry certainly can't be responsible for fixing any issues with this; it's a symptom of something greater. I just don't think we should accept it as okay. Primarily due to the variability of tipping... I will always need to pay enough to cover the cost of the food and kitchen, so the restaurant is okay. But how can I be certain that the person serving me is taken care of? My individual tip isn't enough, and I know many servers do terribly depending on time and location. I've worked shitty jobs, but I always got paid the same amount by my employer and there were legal frameworks to protect me. Servers don't get the same from us, and I don't think that's alright. We can point to when it works out well for servers, but again, I don't think that's typical.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    > Servers love tip out. They can make hundreds a night and possibly even what a junior SWE can (pro rata) if they’re good. Bollocks. Maybe at the fanciest, high-end locations, and only on busy days, i.e. Fridays or Saturdays. Maybe a Jr SWE in, like Mississippi, but there is no way even the top 10% of servers are pushing tech hub SWE salaries. And even if the pure-cash gets kind-of close, there is often no healthcare, no 401k, no bennies, no bonus; the TC wouldn't be close at all. Many states only pay $2.18 per hour for tipped jobs; 15/hr would be utterly amazing and 25 would be great. No server I know would ever push back on that, save for the tiny, tiny handful working at high-end locations. Yeah the dude working at the trendy bar in NYC with $33 highballs might be able to pull near six-figures while handling a cocaine habit, but I'd bet my hat that a majority of servers would make more money if they 25/hr.
    - savingsPossible 4y ago
      > Many states only pay $2.18 per hour for tipped jobs; WOW In the US salaries are smaller for tipped jobs??? That is the problem right there. I bet everywhere else, like literally every other country, the minimum wage also applies to waiters
  - mustacheemperor 4y ago
    I think the result of this survey would differ considerably at the pub/cafe in Prineville Oregon vs a steakhouse in downtown San Francisco, and across the country there's a lot more Prinevilles than San Franciscos.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  It would be trickle-downy if they weren't competing for the same one bedroom apartments.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  The exact mechanism of employee compensation here doesn't matter. Either the tech worker pays $30+6 tip for a meal and the server makes $10, or the tech worker pays $36 with no tip for a meal and the server is paid more and still makes $10, it doesn't matter. The point is that a restaurant needs a large number of rich clientele in order for the restaurants' employees to make a lot of money.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    My problem is primarily when the restaurants use tipping as variable compensation where the minimum compensation is arguably lower than it should be. There should always be a sane minimum wage, and it seems absurd to me that there are places where 1. the minimum wage is not substantial enough to live on and 2. servers aren't entitled to it, and rely on tips to attain a wage they can survive on. As such I really do prefer the model where the food covers all wages with no employees being deprived of minimum wages. If tipping is provided on top, great – it's nice to say thanks if it's culturally acceptable. On the other hand, it's not okay to have to depend on those tips. This is an opinion, but even major cities with high living expenses where minimum wages are provided seem problematic. In my city we had a brief period where more than minimum wage was offered due to worker shortages, but those days are over. Now servers are being hired back at $15.50 per hour which is an insanely small amount to live on. Shifts are provided such that you can never be considered full-time, depriving you of various benefits many would consider essential. Do tips _really_ make up for that? No health benefits, not enough hours to work in order to earn a reliable minimum income, no regular hours, etc. What a shitty deal. Sure, it could motivate people to "do better", but that's not always an option and it means we've essentially got a meat-grinder of an occupation that churns out people in a cycle of exploitation. Why not do better? My shittiest jobs were miserable but at least I was compensated well. And I could be pretty brain-dead to do it. Stacking wood for kilns, pushing it through machines, bundling it, etc. I made way more than today's minimum wage, got vacation time, health benefits, etc. doing that stuff, but I did it 15 years ago. I get that margins are slim in the food industry so that isn't possible today. My point is more like, maybe we should collectively work towards rectifying that and consider what we've got today to be a problem. Of course I'm open to being totally wrong. There are a lot of forces at work, I'm not all that smart, and I just don't like the idea of being a server and having that experience. I'd personally prefer to pay a little more to alleviate that, but I know many would prefer to pay even less still.
- astrange 4y ago
  "Trickle-down" is meaningless. Getting tipped can enter you into the entertainer class, like a musician or an onlyfans owner. On the high end that means you get paid a lot more, because each of your individual customers is paying you and none of them are looking at your total income and deciding you already made enough.
- burnished 4y ago
  Absolutely - perhaps I was being too subtle, or simply unclear. Damning with faint praise implies that this isnt a meaningful improvement.
- cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  Tips create both performance incentives and price flexibility. In Europe, where tips are not customary, attitude from service workers is much worse than US. On the other hand, it's nice for someone of modest means to treat themselves to a restaurant or hotel at a lower price. Those are pro-consumer considerations, but service workers are also consumers of many other things.
  - diceduckmonk 4y ago
    > Tips create both performance incentives and price flexibility. In Europe, where tips are not customary, attitude from service workers is much worse than US. In Japan, where tips are prohibited, attitude from service workers is much better than US.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Because that’s Japanese culture.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    > attitude from service workers I find it bizarre that we expect good attitude from service workers when, generally speaking, they are not working a particularly enjoyable job nor earning much for doing it. I know there are exceptions, but the bulk of service workers I encounter are probably not making bank by any means. I can't bring myself to expect them to deliver a specific attitude with my food or coffee or whatever.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    The worst customer service I can ever remember observing was in the US (LA specifically). But I've had indifferent, sloppy and excellent customer service in every country I spent long enough in to observe it, and the US was the only one where not tipping is considered some sort of faux-pas by the customer.
  - Beldin 4y ago
    > In Europe, where tips are not customary, attitude from service workers is much worse than US. There are cultural differences between the US and Europe, also concerning how service workers interact with and towards those they provide service. Thus, Europeans and USA'ians could observe the same set of behaviours from EU/US service workers, and both would praise "their" worker and be appalled by the "other" worker's behaviour.
- Beldin 4y ago
  > I know it sounds crazy in today-terms I know of no other country where tipping is such a major part of sustainable wages. In all other countries I know of, tips are a supplement to the wage - a nice-to-have, a perk of the job. Sometimes needed to make the job worthwhile, because it isn't worth doing at minimum wage. But nowhere near the extent the US has lifted it to. Basically: industrialised begging for change. So: no, it doesn't sound crazy at all in today-terms.

Tip outs are better in bougie joints frequented by tech workers. This isnt a contradiction to your main point, maybe more of a damning with faint praise if anything.

diceduckmonk 4y ago

Affluent people existed before Google and tech workers.

steve_adams_86 4y ago

> Tip outs are better in bougie joints frequented by tech workers. This sounds a little trickle-downy. Why not strive for an economy where people doing important work like feeding their communities just... Don't need to be tipped? I know it sounds crazy in today-terms, but if it makes any sense, it makes tipping culture look like more of a problem than a boon to anyone receiving the tips.

mikrl 4y ago
Servers love tip out. They can make hundreds a night and possibly even what a junior SWE can (pro rata) if they’re good. If you want fierce resistance from servers - ask them to split tips more equitably with the kitchen - offer to abolish the tip system altogether and just pay them $15/h flat, hell even $25/h
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  That servers love tip outs today doesn't necessarily mean it's an absolutely good model, or that they will be grateful for it in say 20 years when they can no longer succeed in these types of jobs. I'm not claiming it should never be a thing. I just wonder if we should collectively accept it and want it to be part of our economy and how our communities function. I have had many friends who do well as servers (and indeed, one earning more than I did was a junior SWE), but it doesn't seem typical, nor does it seem sustainable. The restaurant industry certainly can't be responsible for fixing any issues with this; it's a symptom of something greater. I just don't think we should accept it as okay. Primarily due to the variability of tipping... I will always need to pay enough to cover the cost of the food and kitchen, so the restaurant is okay. But how can I be certain that the person serving me is taken care of? My individual tip isn't enough, and I know many servers do terribly depending on time and location. I've worked shitty jobs, but I always got paid the same amount by my employer and there were legal frameworks to protect me. Servers don't get the same from us, and I don't think that's alright. We can point to when it works out well for servers, but again, I don't think that's typical.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  > Servers love tip out. They can make hundreds a night and possibly even what a junior SWE can (pro rata) if they’re good. Bollocks. Maybe at the fanciest, high-end locations, and only on busy days, i.e. Fridays or Saturdays. Maybe a Jr SWE in, like Mississippi, but there is no way even the top 10% of servers are pushing tech hub SWE salaries. And even if the pure-cash gets kind-of close, there is often no healthcare, no 401k, no bennies, no bonus; the TC wouldn't be close at all. Many states only pay $2.18 per hour for tipped jobs; 15/hr would be utterly amazing and 25 would be great. No server I know would ever push back on that, save for the tiny, tiny handful working at high-end locations. Yeah the dude working at the trendy bar in NYC with $33 highballs might be able to pull near six-figures while handling a cocaine habit, but I'd bet my hat that a majority of servers would make more money if they 25/hr.
  - savingsPossible 4y ago
    > Many states only pay $2.18 per hour for tipped jobs; WOW In the US salaries are smaller for tipped jobs??? That is the problem right there. I bet everywhere else, like literally every other country, the minimum wage also applies to waiters
- mustacheemperor 4y ago
  I think the result of this survey would differ considerably at the pub/cafe in Prineville Oregon vs a steakhouse in downtown San Francisco, and across the country there's a lot more Prinevilles than San Franciscos.
whatshisface 4y ago
It would be trickle-downy if they weren't competing for the same one bedroom apartments.
CydeWeys 4y ago
The exact mechanism of employee compensation here doesn't matter. Either the tech worker pays $30+6 tip for a meal and the server makes $10, or the tech worker pays $36 with no tip for a meal and the server is paid more and still makes $10, it doesn't matter. The point is that a restaurant needs a large number of rich clientele in order for the restaurants' employees to make a lot of money.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  My problem is primarily when the restaurants use tipping as variable compensation where the minimum compensation is arguably lower than it should be. There should always be a sane minimum wage, and it seems absurd to me that there are places where 1. the minimum wage is not substantial enough to live on and 2. servers aren't entitled to it, and rely on tips to attain a wage they can survive on. As such I really do prefer the model where the food covers all wages with no employees being deprived of minimum wages. If tipping is provided on top, great – it's nice to say thanks if it's culturally acceptable. On the other hand, it's not okay to have to depend on those tips. This is an opinion, but even major cities with high living expenses where minimum wages are provided seem problematic. In my city we had a brief period where more than minimum wage was offered due to worker shortages, but those days are over. Now servers are being hired back at $15.50 per hour which is an insanely small amount to live on. Shifts are provided such that you can never be considered full-time, depriving you of various benefits many would consider essential. Do tips _really_ make up for that? No health benefits, not enough hours to work in order to earn a reliable minimum income, no regular hours, etc. What a shitty deal. Sure, it could motivate people to "do better", but that's not always an option and it means we've essentially got a meat-grinder of an occupation that churns out people in a cycle of exploitation. Why not do better? My shittiest jobs were miserable but at least I was compensated well. And I could be pretty brain-dead to do it. Stacking wood for kilns, pushing it through machines, bundling it, etc. I made way more than today's minimum wage, got vacation time, health benefits, etc. doing that stuff, but I did it 15 years ago. I get that margins are slim in the food industry so that isn't possible today. My point is more like, maybe we should collectively work towards rectifying that and consider what we've got today to be a problem. Of course I'm open to being totally wrong. There are a lot of forces at work, I'm not all that smart, and I just don't like the idea of being a server and having that experience. I'd personally prefer to pay a little more to alleviate that, but I know many would prefer to pay even less still.
astrange 4y ago
"Trickle-down" is meaningless. Getting tipped can enter you into the entertainer class, like a musician or an onlyfans owner. On the high end that means you get paid a lot more, because each of your individual customers is paying you and none of them are looking at your total income and deciding you already made enough.
burnished 4y ago
Absolutely - perhaps I was being too subtle, or simply unclear. Damning with faint praise implies that this isnt a meaningful improvement.
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
Tips create both performance incentives and price flexibility. In Europe, where tips are not customary, attitude from service workers is much worse than US. On the other hand, it's nice for someone of modest means to treat themselves to a restaurant or hotel at a lower price. Those are pro-consumer considerations, but service workers are also consumers of many other things.
- diceduckmonk 4y ago
  > Tips create both performance incentives and price flexibility. In Europe, where tips are not customary, attitude from service workers is much worse than US. In Japan, where tips are prohibited, attitude from service workers is much better than US.
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Because that’s Japanese culture.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  > attitude from service workers I find it bizarre that we expect good attitude from service workers when, generally speaking, they are not working a particularly enjoyable job nor earning much for doing it. I know there are exceptions, but the bulk of service workers I encounter are probably not making bank by any means. I can't bring myself to expect them to deliver a specific attitude with my food or coffee or whatever.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  The worst customer service I can ever remember observing was in the US (LA specifically). But I've had indifferent, sloppy and excellent customer service in every country I spent long enough in to observe it, and the US was the only one where not tipping is considered some sort of faux-pas by the customer.
- Beldin 4y ago
  > In Europe, where tips are not customary, attitude from service workers is much worse than US. There are cultural differences between the US and Europe, also concerning how service workers interact with and towards those they provide service. Thus, Europeans and USA'ians could observe the same set of behaviours from EU/US service workers, and both would praise "their" worker and be appalled by the "other" worker's behaviour.
Beldin 4y ago
> I know it sounds crazy in today-terms I know of no other country where tipping is such a major part of sustainable wages. In all other countries I know of, tips are a supplement to the wage - a nice-to-have, a perk of the job. Sometimes needed to make the job worthwhile, because it isn't worth doing at minimum wage. But nowhere near the extent the US has lifted it to. Basically: industrialised begging for change. So: no, it doesn't sound crazy at all in today-terms.