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You're not wrong, Walter. On the other hand, one of the reasons Normal People dislike the hacker community is the prevalence of "see I told you so" and/or "bad

You're not wrong, Walter. On the other hand, one of the reasons Normal People dislike the hacker community is the prevalence of "see I told you so" and/or "bad things wouldn't happen to you if you weren't such a dumbass" culture. The fact that a technical workaround exists for this particular brand of destructive and capricious behavior by the U.S. Federales is not, in itself, a great reason to transform the story into Yet Another Personal I.T. Teaching Moment. The safety deposit box example is apt here. If my local bank gets busted for some shady-ass shit, and the Feds confiscate some family heirloom along with all the bricks of heroin from the bank vault, what should we demand from our government in that case? And if we're not likely to get what we feel entitled to demand, what are our realistic options for doing something about that?

fennecfoxen 15y ago
The Libertarian community has been on top pf this sort of thing for decades and would surely be able to offer a lot of "see I told you so" as well. Remember that analogy about how people said SOPA provisions were like shutting down the Ritz Carlton because occasionally politicians cheated on their wives there? Take away a few layers of class, and there have been some motels that the government has seized (or tried to sieze) because occasionally tenants would do drug deals there. A handy article on the topic that was easy for me to find: http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/26/the-forfeiture-racket/singlepage http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/26/the-forfeiture-racket/... In short, don't hold your breath waiting for your data to come back.
- rcfox 15y ago
  > The Libertarian community Note for the future: This adds no value to your comment, and makes you look like you're trying to spin this story in someway to benefit your political alignment.
  - fennecfoxen 15y ago
    It's a shout-out to the parent poster's use of the phrase "the hacker community" and its own attendant "I-told-you-so"-ism (which I'm pretty sure is construed as a negative). It's a community I personally completely identify with but I've read some of their work and respect certain parts of it. Here, let me write a 50-page essay on the minutae of my political views, that'll be real interesting reading for the HN people. cut me some slack, jack.
    - fennecfoxen 15y ago
      somehow i dropped the words 'not' out of 'a community i personally completely identify with'. I blame acute lack of caffeine. my shipment of Tonx coffee was delayed 2 days on account of MLK day and the local postal worker. my apologies.
  - CamperBob 15y ago
    Gee, maybe that's because some "political alignments" are substantially better than others when it comes to this sort of issue.
  - cliveholloway 15y ago
    I would have just pointed out that the phrase "Libertarian community" is an oxymoron, heh.
abraxasz 15y ago
"If my local bank gets busted for some shady-ass shit" Except that you will probably not put your money in a bank that's widely known for being a drug dealers haven, will you? I also am not a big fan of the "see I told you" attitude, but it seems to me that no sane person would ever put some valuable/important things on megaupload. Of course there is not guarantee that services like icloud or dropbox will never get shut down, but they do look much more reliable than megaupload..
- marshray 15y ago
  no sane person would ever put some valuable/important things on megaupload How do we explain to sane, but non-internet-savvy, people what rules they should use to tell "safe" places to store their data from "unsafe" ones. Megaupload took pains to not show infringing content on their home page and they did not provide a search engine that would return it. I'd ended up at the site several times and, though it set off a few of my red flags, I can't really explain why.
  - ScottBurson 15y ago
    Simple. File in two widely separated places: pretty safe File in three widely separated places: safe File in only one place, no matter where it is: unsafe
    - jsilence 15y ago
      This is what I usually tell non-tech-savy people to do. "Remember to make backups" seems to be too abstract and thus they tend to procrastinate the "make backup" topic away. "Copy your important stuff to at least one other place, be it an external hard disk, a USB-Stick, a DVD or an online storage service." And then I usually configure Dropbox for them and show them how to use it. And I tell them not to put sensitive information like online banking PINs on there. And tell them that I can also show them a way to further secure the data with TrueCrypt. But some are even resistant to this. I don't bother pushing them, because I know they will lose data at some point. When that happens I "told you so" them once and after having a good laugh at their dangling unmentionables I help them setting up backup/redundant storage.
john2x 15y ago
I don't get this. We're* quick to shoot down any arguments which equate online piracy to real world piracy, but when it's "our" files which are affected, we're quick to go back to the online-real world analogies. *"We" might not include you, OP, so apologies. Not directed at you. Just noticing a trend.
- Natsu 15y ago
  If they don't have a copy of the file any more and their last copy is taken, it's quite a bit different than if the Feds made a copy of their files.
- Groxx 15y ago
  Probably because we* have stupendously weaker protection of our data than pirated-content-providers, be it in the form of multiple backups or the quality of the hosting. When MegaUpload went down, I doubt any software companies lost their only copies of what they were building, or any music groups completely lost their albums. An Average User™ with files on MU though... *"we" intentionally including non-tech-savvy people.
- vectorpush 15y ago
  After the countless threads about this topic, I don't get how the distinction between copying bits and deprivation of property isn't clear. If the FBI mirrored megaupload's entire data store (ala piracy), none of those tweets would exist and most people wouldn't even be aware anything happened (since copying a sequence of ones and zeroes has no quantifiable impact on one's property). I'm not defending megaupload for copyright infringement, but your allusion to hypocrisy makes no sense since these people are being denied access to their legal IP.
tsotha 15y ago
The cops at various levels do this kind of thing all the time. Let's say you shoot someone breaking into your house. Let's say it's a clean shoot - the guy was a serial killer (or whatever) and you're 100% inside the bounds of the law. The cops show up and take your gun. "We'll give it back after the investigation," they say. Time stretches on. They investigate. The DA agrees it's a clean shoot and declines to file any charges. It's been 18 months. You ask for your gun back. "No," they explain. And that's... all, pretty much. They have no legal right to keep it. They offer no explanation. You can always spend ten grand suing over an item worth less than $1000, but you won't and they know it. So if you had files at Megaupload, even though (I think we agree) you have a perfect right to expect the feds to return your property, you probably shouldn't actually expect them to do so.

fennecfoxen 15y ago

The Libertarian community has been on top pf this sort of thing for decades and would surely be able to offer a lot of "see I told you so" as well. Remember that analogy about how people said SOPA provisions were like shutting down the Ritz Carlton because occasionally politicians cheated on their wives there? Take away a few layers of class, and there have been some motels that the government has seized (or tried to sieze) because occasionally tenants would do drug deals there. A handy article on the topic that was easy for me to find: http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/26/the-forfeiture-racket/singlepage http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/26/the-forfeiture-racket/... In short, don't hold your breath waiting for your data to come back.

rcfox 15y ago
> The Libertarian community Note for the future: This adds no value to your comment, and makes you look like you're trying to spin this story in someway to benefit your political alignment.
- fennecfoxen 15y ago
  It's a shout-out to the parent poster's use of the phrase "the hacker community" and its own attendant "I-told-you-so"-ism (which I'm pretty sure is construed as a negative). It's a community I personally completely identify with but I've read some of their work and respect certain parts of it. Here, let me write a 50-page essay on the minutae of my political views, that'll be real interesting reading for the HN people. cut me some slack, jack.
  - fennecfoxen 15y ago
    somehow i dropped the words 'not' out of 'a community i personally completely identify with'. I blame acute lack of caffeine. my shipment of Tonx coffee was delayed 2 days on account of MLK day and the local postal worker. my apologies.
- CamperBob 15y ago
  Gee, maybe that's because some "political alignments" are substantially better than others when it comes to this sort of issue.
- cliveholloway 15y ago
  I would have just pointed out that the phrase "Libertarian community" is an oxymoron, heh.

abraxasz 15y ago

"If my local bank gets busted for some shady-ass shit" Except that you will probably not put your money in a bank that's widely known for being a drug dealers haven, will you? I also am not a big fan of the "see I told you" attitude, but it seems to me that no sane person would ever put some valuable/important things on megaupload. Of course there is not guarantee that services like icloud or dropbox will never get shut down, but they do look much more reliable than megaupload..

marshray 15y ago
no sane person would ever put some valuable/important things on megaupload How do we explain to sane, but non-internet-savvy, people what rules they should use to tell "safe" places to store their data from "unsafe" ones. Megaupload took pains to not show infringing content on their home page and they did not provide a search engine that would return it. I'd ended up at the site several times and, though it set off a few of my red flags, I can't really explain why.
- ScottBurson 15y ago
  Simple. File in two widely separated places: pretty safe File in three widely separated places: safe File in only one place, no matter where it is: unsafe
  - jsilence 15y ago
    This is what I usually tell non-tech-savy people to do. "Remember to make backups" seems to be too abstract and thus they tend to procrastinate the "make backup" topic away. "Copy your important stuff to at least one other place, be it an external hard disk, a USB-Stick, a DVD or an online storage service." And then I usually configure Dropbox for them and show them how to use it. And I tell them not to put sensitive information like online banking PINs on there. And tell them that I can also show them a way to further secure the data with TrueCrypt. But some are even resistant to this. I don't bother pushing them, because I know they will lose data at some point. When that happens I "told you so" them once and after having a good laugh at their dangling unmentionables I help them setting up backup/redundant storage.

john2x 15y ago

I don't get this. We're* quick to shoot down any arguments which equate online piracy to real world piracy, but when it's "our" files which are affected, we're quick to go back to the online-real world analogies. *"We" might not include you, OP, so apologies. Not directed at you. Just noticing a trend.

Natsu 15y ago
If they don't have a copy of the file any more and their last copy is taken, it's quite a bit different than if the Feds made a copy of their files.
Groxx 15y ago
Probably because we* have stupendously weaker protection of our data than pirated-content-providers, be it in the form of multiple backups or the quality of the hosting. When MegaUpload went down, I doubt any software companies lost their only copies of what they were building, or any music groups completely lost their albums. An Average User™ with files on MU though... *"we" intentionally including non-tech-savvy people.
vectorpush 15y ago
After the countless threads about this topic, I don't get how the distinction between copying bits and deprivation of property isn't clear. If the FBI mirrored megaupload's entire data store (ala piracy), none of those tweets would exist and most people wouldn't even be aware anything happened (since copying a sequence of ones and zeroes has no quantifiable impact on one's property). I'm not defending megaupload for copyright infringement, but your allusion to hypocrisy makes no sense since these people are being denied access to their legal IP.

tsotha 15y ago

The cops at various levels do this kind of thing all the time. Let's say you shoot someone breaking into your house. Let's say it's a clean shoot - the guy was a serial killer (or whatever) and you're 100% inside the bounds of the law. The cops show up and take your gun. "We'll give it back after the investigation," they say. Time stretches on. They investigate. The DA agrees it's a clean shoot and declines to file any charges. It's been 18 months. You ask for your gun back. "No," they explain. And that's... all, pretty much. They have no legal right to keep it. They offer no explanation. You can always spend ten grand suing over an item worth less than $1000, but you won't and they know it. So if you had files at Megaupload, even though (I think we agree) you have a perfect right to expect the feds to return your property, you probably shouldn't actually expect them to do so.