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> the last is purely market driven (no matter how much companies wish it weren’t) Why would companies wish it weren't? It lets them underpay people because "th

> the last is purely market driven (no matter how much companies wish it weren’t) Why would companies wish it weren't? It lets them underpay people because "the market" broadly underpays them. I've talked about this dynamic with leaders like that, who opposed salary transparency because they underpaid people who they knew the market would undervalue, where the actual contribution of the person in question is irrelevant. As they put it (grossly), if you're a minority that would be paid less elsewhere, I'm going to pay you less here because I can. Not because you're a minority, but just because that's the way the market works. I've been in situations where the "market forces" are stupid enough that I've been paid more than someone nominally one level up from me (senior eng. vs junior). It's immoral as hell but what are you going to do? The company is always going to pay every worker as little as they can, and not a cent more.

kriops 4y ago
If your comp is at fair market value, your are not being underpaid, by any honest and reasonable definition of “underpaid”.
- fnimick 4y ago
  The problem is when "fair market value" differs between two people for reasons other than their work productivity - including protected classes such as race, gender, etc. Is it illegal? No. Immoral? I'd argue yes, if the only reason you get to pay them less is that the broader market is biased against them for reasons outside of their control.
robertlagrant 4y ago
It's not immoral, any more than you bidding lower as a house buyer is immoral. Your individual circumstances as buyer and seller are different, and you need to make a free agreement that fits those. If you can't, you walk away. If you can, great. The same forces (and morality) applies to salaries.
- fnimick 4y ago
  The immoral part is where a senior employee was being paid less because she was "less valuable" on the open market due to her gender and ethnicity. Edit: see also the recent stories about home values varying wildly based on whether the current owner is white or black. This is based on perceived 'market value', is this fair? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/freddie-mac-home-appraisal-housing-discrimination-black-homeowner/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/freddie-mac-home-appraisal-hous...
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    What you're describing is illegal. If there's strong evidence, then the legal system should be brought to bear on discriminatory practices. I don't think that ascribing morality to the general case of people being able to freely enter into agreements at different prices is a good idea.
    - fnimick 4y ago
      Is it illegal? The discrimination isn't based on anything other than the "free market" - if she could get a better offer elsewhere, they'd pay her more. The fact that she can't get a better offer elsewhere due to discrimination isn't evidence of discrimination on the part of the company that employs her, under your framework.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        It's illegal if the reason is as you say. You're arguing the wrong thing. The mechanism by which things are priced and agreed is a good thing. There are certain protected categories which cannot be used to set a price/offer except where they are directly relevant to the job. Whether you think that's good or bad is your prerogative, but that's how it works. However, having evidence that that is the reason such that we can be confident it is that, rather than assuming it, is difficult.
        fnimick 4y ago

kriops 4y ago

If your comp is at fair market value, your are not being underpaid, by any honest and reasonable definition of “underpaid”.

fnimick 4y ago
The problem is when "fair market value" differs between two people for reasons other than their work productivity - including protected classes such as race, gender, etc. Is it illegal? No. Immoral? I'd argue yes, if the only reason you get to pay them less is that the broader market is biased against them for reasons outside of their control.

robertlagrant 4y ago

It's not immoral, any more than you bidding lower as a house buyer is immoral. Your individual circumstances as buyer and seller are different, and you need to make a free agreement that fits those. If you can't, you walk away. If you can, great. The same forces (and morality) applies to salaries.

fnimick 4y ago
The immoral part is where a senior employee was being paid less because she was "less valuable" on the open market due to her gender and ethnicity. Edit: see also the recent stories about home values varying wildly based on whether the current owner is white or black. This is based on perceived 'market value', is this fair? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/freddie-mac-home-appraisal-housing-discrimination-black-homeowner/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/freddie-mac-home-appraisal-hous...
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  What you're describing is illegal. If there's strong evidence, then the legal system should be brought to bear on discriminatory practices. I don't think that ascribing morality to the general case of people being able to freely enter into agreements at different prices is a good idea.
  - fnimick 4y ago
    Is it illegal? The discrimination isn't based on anything other than the "free market" - if she could get a better offer elsewhere, they'd pay her more. The fact that she can't get a better offer elsewhere due to discrimination isn't evidence of discrimination on the part of the company that employs her, under your framework.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      It's illegal if the reason is as you say. You're arguing the wrong thing. The mechanism by which things are priced and agreed is a good thing. There are certain protected categories which cannot be used to set a price/offer except where they are directly relevant to the job. Whether you think that's good or bad is your prerogative, but that's how it works. However, having evidence that that is the reason such that we can be confident it is that, rather than assuming it, is difficult.
      - fnimick 4y ago