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Tell me about it. I'm an iOS engineer at FAANG, but I've been shipping my own apps since 2011. It's depressing that there's no longer a market for paid, high qu

Tell me about it. I'm an iOS engineer at FAANG, but I've been shipping my own apps since 2011. It's depressing that there's no longer a market for paid, high quality, ad-free, fully packaged apps and games. I actually interned at a mobile games studio for a summer and it was made clear to me what the profit model was: pander solely to the whales, ignore the free users. Something like 70% of our revenue came from 2% of our users. Super bleak and helped contribute to my realization that there's just not reliable money to be made as a solo iOS dev anymore. Better to collect a paycheck building someone else's app.

milsorgen 4y ago
>It's depressing that there's no longer a market for paid, high quality, ad-free, fully packaged apps and games. I can't tell you how crazy it is on Android, to find a killer app that does something that's exactly what I'm looking for and to see perhaps it has or is a paid version, usually for just a few bucks, and I to go-to the store page and see some ridiculously small number under downloads. People will put up with a lot of cruft for free. Even worse in terms of apps and games is that younger people I know don't bat an eye at most it whether it be ads or IAPs. A younger guy I talk tech with will happily pay to win in games he plays, or expensive cosmetics, and he doesn't consider it at all. It's just how things are and he enjoys it. Sometimes I tactfully ask, where is the game if you just buy X or Y? And I don't think he quite gets what I'm hinting at and he's one of the most tech savvy zoomers I know.
dgb23 4y ago
Is that the only conclusion? There's a subset of users who are hungry for high quality applications and games. They will happily pay for substantial extensions and content upgrades. They will remember your name and see anything you release as worth considering. It's a smaller market of course but a sustainable one. In terms of video games. I'm personally not a mobile gamer though. Maybe it's quite a bit different from desktop and console.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >There's a subset of users who are hungry for high quality applications and games. They will happily pay for substantial extensions and content upgrades. Can you point to someone having this sort of success based on this model in the mobile space?
  - nucleogenesis 4y ago
    I have no idea how financially successful they are but the game Dawncaster is great and seems to be faring well. $5 up front, $5 for each expansion (currently 2) which add a substantial amount of content each. The devs are active, patching regularly, and planning another content update this year. They just released a free new mode to the game as well. No ads, no microtransactions just a fun and complete game with lots of replay value - I hope they can sustain it over time
- phillryu 4y ago
  For mobile gaming there might be some creators here or there scratching out a living like that but probably about 0.1% as many as you imagine, or as there seemingly should be considering how much money is in the ecosystem. The vast majority of that money is sucked up by big IP and older established apps and pseudo publishers/install networks that rip off the latest trends and blast them to their audience full of ads etc. Apple Arcade was trying to create a healthier walled garden within App Store but years later feels kind of like a big brand bargain bin the way it's been run. It's just very extreme winner takes all dynamics.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  I actually think there is a function of whales, not yet explored. Dont try to milk them with items. Make them gatekeepers. They get to decide who plays the game, who gets to enter, and who gets to stay. Sounds strange, but if they keep the thing afloat, they might aswell have a total say on that.
  - fho 4y ago
    Wow ... That sounds like a massive power trip.
    - sitzkrieg 4y ago
      obnoxious pay to win items in garbage pvp games definitely cater to this
  - circuit10 4y ago
    What advantage would that have to anyone? That sounds bad for both the developers and the players
- mdip 4y ago
  > There's a subset of users who are hungry for high quality applications and games. You're right on, here, and it points to a few problems and opportunities. I'm that subset of users yet I have an incredibly hard time finding apps meeting my criteria in the app stores. They are there. I often find them right after purchasing something that isn't as good or using one of a hundred free-but-varying-degrees-of-awful apps because I don't trust that spending even $3.00 isn't going to get me a paid-but-varying-degrees-of-awful app[0]. The amount of awful going on in the space of "mobile development" long passed unacceptable to me. The idea that McDonald's is $10.00 or $4.50 if I use their app that crashes, needs my location, sends me random empty notifications and every other minor and major brand's app that wants to slurp up any little bit of data they can and make my notification tray useless. I'm not happy with the "check this box and we'll track everything you do but 'trust us'" cloud-enabling Windows and every app being non-functional without an internet connection and the "functionality provided" often being "license validation" and/or "share this! social network features and data mining"... takes a breath yeah, that got away from me ... but it's just nuts. [0] The reviews which mix in the mess of one-stars from "a bad release" among the five-star "some of which were clearly paid for" just leave one wanting to take up drinking.
stoicjumbotron 4y ago
Can't believe this is the story with iOS as well. I thought Apple fared better as compared to Android when it came to paid apps.
- smugma 4y ago
  Very similar story with iOS as well. Adware and InApp is the standard. One way around it is Arcade, which has lots of quality games with no ads nor in apps.
cptcobalt 4y ago
you're not an engineer at one of the A's (Apple) if you're shipping your own apps — the employment agreement restricts it.
- flangola7 4y ago
  Those agreements aren't permitted in many countries, where OP might be at.
- angelbar 4y ago
  He can have a Spouse or son that can manage/have the finance side of things -edit: Or husband, whatever be
mdip 4y ago
That's so sad. I had this pain with my kids a few months ago while "looking to kill some time" in the Android world. I don't play a lot of phone games and was dismayed at the crap that was out there. I like to introduce the kids to more low-fidelity games -- I started with 2048 -- I want to say probably 5-10 different choices; all I was looking for was "lets me buy away the ads", works offline (one choice was a webview to a URL which was not cached, several were very low quality) and has a small number of features that I like (and mostly sacrificed). I ended up buying mobile version of The Kittens Game[0]. $2.99, minimally updated[1], and worth every penny. The pollution in the market as it were, I would have spent $9.99 for it. Your comment kind of got me thinking, though. While searching, I used a "mental sorting method" (after I found a game matching my requirements) best summarized as "price, descending" because -- in a hurry -- I equated price with quality and assumed "a more expensive game in this category is not going to have ads/be a scam." In some spaces (slot machine/casino games), I wouldn't touch an app that wasn't "upfront payment only/no ads/no tokens" or "free without ads"[2], yet would happily pay for any that worked anything like the old Xbox Texas Hold'em (without voice/any casino-style game). [0] https://kittensgame.com/web/ https://kittensgame.com/web/ (I'm sorry for those who have yet to be exposed). [1] So my kids got hooked which meant I went down that rabbit hole, again. I'm not sure when the last update was, but many bugs mentioned in the Wiki aren't present in the mobile game.
- cld8483 4y ago
  Try FDroid instead of Play Store. FDroid has a clean version of 2048. And Shattered Pixel is pretty good too; a well polished touch-based graphical roguelike, free on FDroid without any ads or IAPs.
  - testTED 4y ago
    Kids love Super Tux Kart!
- jareklupinski 4y ago
  strangely happy that I grew up with Solitaire every platform has a free version (hidden beneath the ad-ware ones)
axus 4y ago
The Netflix Games you can get for being a subscriber are decent quality with no ads. I imagine that will get cut at some point unless they've got a way to measure how much this benefits their subscription numbers. The Amazon Underground thing they used to incentivize their app store was pretty great also, the "Actually Free" games let you unlock everything in the App. That was discontinued in 2019. It's interesting how much more effective advertising is than word-of-mouth. Maybe its because I'm not an "active gamer", but it's been hard to find honest recommendations for good paid games by small developers. Trying to research through the Play Store is very difficult though not completely impossible. The store credits from "Google Rewards" certainly lubricate the process of trying things out.
- throwaway743 4y ago
  My assumption at first was that netflix would be crappy. Haven't looked at wm since they started appearing, but just the other day saw that Devolver is making games for netflix now. Pair that with seeing recent positive feedback, it made me second guess my wrongly held assumption I'm guessing it's not a bad platform?
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  Netflix has been licensing some top indie games for their offering. Some of them are a cut above decent. Just Kentucky Route Zero, Immortality, Spiritfarer and Into the Breach would be worth the subscription by themselves. The App Store and Play Store are full of ad free and micro transactions free good ports of popular PC games if you are ready to pay the price. Some are strictly targeting the iPad but others can be played on a phone. I have spent an insane amount of time playing Slay The Spire on mine. They are not really put forward by Apple and Google however.

milsorgen 4y ago

>It's depressing that there's no longer a market for paid, high quality, ad-free, fully packaged apps and games. I can't tell you how crazy it is on Android, to find a killer app that does something that's exactly what I'm looking for and to see perhaps it has or is a paid version, usually for just a few bucks, and I to go-to the store page and see some ridiculously small number under downloads. People will put up with a lot of cruft for free. Even worse in terms of apps and games is that younger people I know don't bat an eye at most it whether it be ads or IAPs. A younger guy I talk tech with will happily pay to win in games he plays, or expensive cosmetics, and he doesn't consider it at all. It's just how things are and he enjoys it. Sometimes I tactfully ask, where is the game if you just buy X or Y? And I don't think he quite gets what I'm hinting at and he's one of the most tech savvy zoomers I know.

dgb23 4y ago

Is that the only conclusion? There's a subset of users who are hungry for high quality applications and games. They will happily pay for substantial extensions and content upgrades. They will remember your name and see anything you release as worth considering. It's a smaller market of course but a sustainable one. In terms of video games. I'm personally not a mobile gamer though. Maybe it's quite a bit different from desktop and console.

itsoktocry 4y ago
>There's a subset of users who are hungry for high quality applications and games. They will happily pay for substantial extensions and content upgrades. Can you point to someone having this sort of success based on this model in the mobile space?
- nucleogenesis 4y ago
  I have no idea how financially successful they are but the game Dawncaster is great and seems to be faring well. $5 up front, $5 for each expansion (currently 2) which add a substantial amount of content each. The devs are active, patching regularly, and planning another content update this year. They just released a free new mode to the game as well. No ads, no microtransactions just a fun and complete game with lots of replay value - I hope they can sustain it over time
phillryu 4y ago
For mobile gaming there might be some creators here or there scratching out a living like that but probably about 0.1% as many as you imagine, or as there seemingly should be considering how much money is in the ecosystem. The vast majority of that money is sucked up by big IP and older established apps and pseudo publishers/install networks that rip off the latest trends and blast them to their audience full of ads etc. Apple Arcade was trying to create a healthier walled garden within App Store but years later feels kind of like a big brand bargain bin the way it's been run. It's just very extreme winner takes all dynamics.
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
I actually think there is a function of whales, not yet explored. Dont try to milk them with items. Make them gatekeepers. They get to decide who plays the game, who gets to enter, and who gets to stay. Sounds strange, but if they keep the thing afloat, they might aswell have a total say on that.
- fho 4y ago
  Wow ... That sounds like a massive power trip.
  - sitzkrieg 4y ago
    obnoxious pay to win items in garbage pvp games definitely cater to this
- circuit10 4y ago
  What advantage would that have to anyone? That sounds bad for both the developers and the players
mdip 4y ago
> There's a subset of users who are hungry for high quality applications and games. You're right on, here, and it points to a few problems and opportunities. I'm that subset of users yet I have an incredibly hard time finding apps meeting my criteria in the app stores. They are there. I often find them right after purchasing something that isn't as good or using one of a hundred free-but-varying-degrees-of-awful apps because I don't trust that spending even $3.00 isn't going to get me a paid-but-varying-degrees-of-awful app[0]. The amount of awful going on in the space of "mobile development" long passed unacceptable to me. The idea that McDonald's is $10.00 or $4.50 if I use their app that crashes, needs my location, sends me random empty notifications and every other minor and major brand's app that wants to slurp up any little bit of data they can and make my notification tray useless. I'm not happy with the "check this box and we'll track everything you do but 'trust us'" cloud-enabling Windows and every app being non-functional without an internet connection and the "functionality provided" often being "license validation" and/or "share this! social network features and data mining"... takes a breath yeah, that got away from me ... but it's just nuts. [0] The reviews which mix in the mess of one-stars from "a bad release" among the five-star "some of which were clearly paid for" just leave one wanting to take up drinking.

stoicjumbotron 4y ago

Can't believe this is the story with iOS as well. I thought Apple fared better as compared to Android when it came to paid apps.

smugma 4y ago
Very similar story with iOS as well. Adware and InApp is the standard. One way around it is Arcade, which has lots of quality games with no ads nor in apps.

cptcobalt 4y ago

you're not an engineer at one of the A's (Apple) if you're shipping your own apps — the employment agreement restricts it.

flangola7 4y ago
Those agreements aren't permitted in many countries, where OP might be at.
angelbar 4y ago
He can have a Spouse or son that can manage/have the finance side of things -edit: Or husband, whatever be

mdip 4y ago

That's so sad. I had this pain with my kids a few months ago while "looking to kill some time" in the Android world. I don't play a lot of phone games and was dismayed at the crap that was out there. I like to introduce the kids to more low-fidelity games -- I started with 2048 -- I want to say probably 5-10 different choices; all I was looking for was "lets me buy away the ads", works offline (one choice was a webview to a URL which was not cached, several were very low quality) and has a small number of features that I like (and mostly sacrificed). I ended up buying mobile version of The Kittens Game[0]. $2.99, minimally updated[1], and worth every penny. The pollution in the market as it were, I would have spent $9.99 for it. Your comment kind of got me thinking, though. While searching, I used a "mental sorting method" (after I found a game matching my requirements) best summarized as "price, descending" because -- in a hurry -- I equated price with quality and assumed "a more expensive game in this category is not going to have ads/be a scam." In some spaces (slot machine/casino games), I wouldn't touch an app that wasn't "upfront payment only/no ads/no tokens" or "free without ads"[2], yet would happily pay for any that worked anything like the old Xbox Texas Hold'em (without voice/any casino-style game). [0] https://kittensgame.com/web/ https://kittensgame.com/web/ (I'm sorry for those who have yet to be exposed). [1] So my kids got hooked which meant I went down that rabbit hole, again. I'm not sure when the last update was, but many bugs mentioned in the Wiki aren't present in the mobile game.

cld8483 4y ago
Try FDroid instead of Play Store. FDroid has a clean version of 2048. And Shattered Pixel is pretty good too; a well polished touch-based graphical roguelike, free on FDroid without any ads or IAPs.
- testTED 4y ago
  Kids love Super Tux Kart!
jareklupinski 4y ago
strangely happy that I grew up with Solitaire every platform has a free version (hidden beneath the ad-ware ones)

axus 4y ago

The Netflix Games you can get for being a subscriber are decent quality with no ads. I imagine that will get cut at some point unless they've got a way to measure how much this benefits their subscription numbers. The Amazon Underground thing they used to incentivize their app store was pretty great also, the "Actually Free" games let you unlock everything in the App. That was discontinued in 2019. It's interesting how much more effective advertising is than word-of-mouth. Maybe its because I'm not an "active gamer", but it's been hard to find honest recommendations for good paid games by small developers. Trying to research through the Play Store is very difficult though not completely impossible. The store credits from "Google Rewards" certainly lubricate the process of trying things out.

throwaway743 4y ago
My assumption at first was that netflix would be crappy. Haven't looked at wm since they started appearing, but just the other day saw that Devolver is making games for netflix now. Pair that with seeing recent positive feedback, it made me second guess my wrongly held assumption I'm guessing it's not a bad platform?
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
Netflix has been licensing some top indie games for their offering. Some of them are a cut above decent. Just Kentucky Route Zero, Immortality, Spiritfarer and Into the Breach would be worth the subscription by themselves. The App Store and Play Store are full of ad free and micro transactions free good ports of popular PC games if you are ready to pay the price. Some are strictly targeting the iPad but others can be played on a phone. I have spent an insane amount of time playing Slay The Spire on mine. They are not really put forward by Apple and Google however.