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I said this in another thread on this topic, but this was one of the key reasons I left Amazon in 2021. I knew this was coming. It was clear from tech survey (

by mabbo 4y ago

I said this in another thread on this topic, but this was one of the key reasons I left Amazon in 2021. I knew this was coming. It was clear from tech survey (company-wide very long survey on all topics) that devs did not want to be in the office. Yet there was an email from leadership that said "We know you all can't wait to be back in the office". This bizarre dichotomy where we know they know we don't want this, but they're saying we do want this. The stock was reaching new heights every day; things were going great; the was no reason to change back at all. Amazon senior leadership were taking their culture of data-driven-everything and ignoring it because they like it better that way. Meanwhile the were lots of employers who had "full remote" in the job listings. So I started applying to them and never looked back. Instead of spending 50 minutes getting to the office this morning, I spent that time playing with my daughter. I'm not giving this up.

pxlpshr 4y ago
I'm sorry but there's no correlation to AMZN's stock price reaching all-time highs. 1) The entire world was caught in a two-year pandemic and caused e-commerce to exceed retail spending virtually overnight (See: SHOP, BIGC, etc)... and 2) The fed printed an asinine amount of money that dislocated the market from reality. Your work-from-home team had nothing to do with either of those two massive tailwinds.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  The point is that the company wasn't going to make big invasive moves while the stock was up.
- mabbo 4y ago
  Sure, but was the company tanking because we were all working from home? No? All I'm saying is that the company was operating just fine despite everyone being remote. There wasn't a financial reason to do it, and probably lots of good financial reasons not to (sell the offices, reduce overhead that way).
  - ryandvm 4y ago
    Yeah, it strikes me as odd that Amazon is a company whose success is absolutely predicated on having a minimal physical presence, yet their leadership has become obsessed with getting their employees to work in a physical office. Like, what if we could do all this over the internet?
    - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
      I can understand they want it. What I can't stand is their doublespeak and complete inability to openly address the issue. "Yes, we understand you prefer remote work but we prefer to have an eye on you and control you more" is a fair statement. "We know you all want to come back" just makes me furious.
- gilbetron 4y ago
  If the stock goes up, you will not give credit to remote work. If the stock goes down, you will blame remote work.
dgb23 4y ago
> The stock was reaching new heights every day; things were going great; the was no reason to change back at all. Amazon senior leadership were taking their culture of data-driven-everything and ignoring it because they like it better that way. Why is the real reason for this? It's not clear to me from reading the articles. There is one mention about how innovation happens more often when people are in the office. I very much doubt that, specifically because if it were so, they would mention numbers/data that this is based on. I personally work from home 2-3days/week. When I have a good idea I just write it down in our wiki, mention it in slack, maybe grab the phone or just wait until the next meeting to explain it. The best ideas typically need some back and forth, some thinking time, a discussion here or there etc. until they really start to materialize.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Because bad managers feel disconnected when they aren't physically colocated with their employees.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  > Why is the real reason for this? It's not clear to me from reading the articles. Same reason why every study of open offices show that they're bad for productivity but managers and executives can't stop building them. The managers have an emotional need for it, the data doesn't matter.
_hcuq 4y ago
Good people always have other options. That's something employers often forget.
tinyhouse 4y ago
Of course the survey would show that devs don't want to be required to come to the office. Everyone wants the flexibility to choose. If you asked them if they want to move to 4-day work weeks I'm sure most devs would say yes. In the end you need to balance between what the employees want and what's reasonable for the company.
- polotics 4y ago
  How is requiring staff to spend hours of unpaid time in commutes reasonable? In practice since working 70% from home I have more energy, more ideas, am less tired at 5he end of the day... Looks reasonable to me.
  - tinyhouse 4y ago
    They need to live closer to the office if they don't want to spend hours commuting. I agree fully in-person is overkill. But 2-3 times a week is reasonable.

by mabbo 4y ago

pxlpshr 4y ago

I'm sorry but there's no correlation to AMZN's stock price reaching all-time highs. 1) The entire world was caught in a two-year pandemic and caused e-commerce to exceed retail spending virtually overnight (See: SHOP, BIGC, etc)... and 2) The fed printed an asinine amount of money that dislocated the market from reality. Your work-from-home team had nothing to do with either of those two massive tailwinds.

UncleMeat 4y ago
The point is that the company wasn't going to make big invasive moves while the stock was up.
mabbo 4y ago
Sure, but was the company tanking because we were all working from home? No? All I'm saying is that the company was operating just fine despite everyone being remote. There wasn't a financial reason to do it, and probably lots of good financial reasons not to (sell the offices, reduce overhead that way).
- ryandvm 4y ago
  Yeah, it strikes me as odd that Amazon is a company whose success is absolutely predicated on having a minimal physical presence, yet their leadership has become obsessed with getting their employees to work in a physical office. Like, what if we could do all this over the internet?
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    I can understand they want it. What I can't stand is their doublespeak and complete inability to openly address the issue. "Yes, we understand you prefer remote work but we prefer to have an eye on you and control you more" is a fair statement. "We know you all want to come back" just makes me furious.
gilbetron 4y ago
If the stock goes up, you will not give credit to remote work. If the stock goes down, you will blame remote work.

dgb23 4y ago

> The stock was reaching new heights every day; things were going great; the was no reason to change back at all. Amazon senior leadership were taking their culture of data-driven-everything and ignoring it because they like it better that way. Why is the real reason for this? It's not clear to me from reading the articles. There is one mention about how innovation happens more often when people are in the office. I very much doubt that, specifically because if it were so, they would mention numbers/data that this is based on. I personally work from home 2-3days/week. When I have a good idea I just write it down in our wiki, mention it in slack, maybe grab the phone or just wait until the next meeting to explain it. The best ideas typically need some back and forth, some thinking time, a discussion here or there etc. until they really start to materialize.

ethbr0 4y ago
Because bad managers feel disconnected when they aren't physically colocated with their employees.
lamontcg 4y ago
> Why is the real reason for this? It's not clear to me from reading the articles. Same reason why every study of open offices show that they're bad for productivity but managers and executives can't stop building them. The managers have an emotional need for it, the data doesn't matter.

_hcuq 4y ago

Good people always have other options. That's something employers often forget.

tinyhouse 4y ago

Of course the survey would show that devs don't want to be required to come to the office. Everyone wants the flexibility to choose. If you asked them if they want to move to 4-day work weeks I'm sure most devs would say yes. In the end you need to balance between what the employees want and what's reasonable for the company.

polotics 4y ago
How is requiring staff to spend hours of unpaid time in commutes reasonable? In practice since working 70% from home I have more energy, more ideas, am less tired at 5he end of the day... Looks reasonable to me.
- tinyhouse 4y ago
  They need to live closer to the office if they don't want to spend hours commuting. I agree fully in-person is overkill. But 2-3 times a week is reasonable.