5 ms·

I feel like California is very litigious in comparison to other places I’ve lived. While I like many of the benefits of this, it sometimes also feels like the w

I feel like California is very litigious in comparison to other places I’ve lived. While I like many of the benefits of this, it sometimes also feels like the weight of process is overkill. Still, water rights in the entire Southwest US need to be shaken up a bit. If we don’t, we are going to have people die from precedent.

kurthr 4y ago
Wherever you go Ag is the dominant water user. Whether it's rice in CA or alfalfa in Arizona, that's where the real waste is. If people are going to die it's for corporate export profits. If you stopped the unsustainable farming there would be plenty of water. Something like 30% of that water's farm product isn't even used in the US. This was the most recent article that popped up in tehGoog, but it's a long running issue. If it's just a question of corporate profits and state tax revenue, exactly why do the laws need to be changed to benefit some states with later claims? https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/foreign-companies-face-mounting-criticism-for-using-arizona-water-to-grow-crops-for-export https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/foreign-companies-face-mou...
- s0rce 4y ago
  This letter from the Southern Nevada water authority is a good read https://www.usbr.gov/ColoradoRiverBasin/documents/SEISScopingComments/41_Southern%20Nevada%20Water%20Authority.pdf https://www.usbr.gov/ColoradoRiverBasin/documents/SEISScopin...
- jeffbee 4y ago
  It's easy to talk about rice because the fields are flooded and it makes for a certain kind of photograph, but it is hard to see how the water applied to rice fields is "wasted". They grow it in counties that are chronically inundated, where the only reason everything isn't underwater constantly is because of huge levees.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    I've never really thought about it, do the fields have a drainage system to get rid of the water? I understand the water's reason is flushing out insects and mice, right? If they don't pump it out and back into a river, and it just slowly seeps into the ground, that's exactly what the article is proposing, isn't it? Just with the added benefit of keeping the rice plants uneaten.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      The way it is practiced in Northern California, about half of the water applied is actually consumed the way you think of the word "consumed": in evaporation and transpiration. The rest either drains off the edge of the field back into the river, or percolates into the ground. When northern California weirs are flowing and the "bypass" fields of the Sacramento are flooded, much of that recharges the groundwater, exactly the storm capture that you'd want. But what the article is discussing are waterworks that would pump smaller rivers like the Russian dry, in any year. They think any water that reaches the Pacific is waste, to hell with fish.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  Im not saying it’s right, but California is one is the reasons food has been affordable in Western North America for decades. I can only imagine how much food will cost in Alaska and Hawaii without CA ag This is like deficit spending. Eventually, the chickens will come to roost.
  - CameronNemo 4y ago
    I don't think the commenter is proposing banning exports of food to the rest of north america or other US territories (the non continental us territories/states are too small to even be important). The exports to be concerned about the ones going to non-North American areas, especially alfalfa. I don't want people in developing nations to starve, but the truth is the current agricultural output is unsustainable which is bad for global food security in the long run.
  - topkai22 4y ago
    California has a reputation for growing high water use crops in low water areas. California can still provide epics amounts of food for less water usage, it would just be a different mix of products.
    - sroussey 4y ago
      Yes, but there is nuance. Like rice is grown where there is a forced conservation for some other purpose, and hey since we have to have pools of water here, can we make rice? Sure, ok… Later… “CA wasting water by growing rice! Can you believe those idiots? It’s a drought!”
      - shagie 4y ago
        The conservation aspect is interesting... and not exactly forced. https://calricenews.org/2021/09/01/flooding-opportunities-drought-relief-waterbird-program/ https://calricenews.org/2021/09/01/flooding-opportunities-dr... https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1019488080 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1019488080 However, there are other questionable crops that are being grown in California and exported. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado-drought-water-alfalfa-farmers-conservation https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado... > In 2021, nearly 20% of alfalfa produced in the west was shipped abroad, according to analysis of United States Department of Agriculture data. Nationwide, alfalfa exports reached a record high last year, driven by strong demand from China. Japan, South Korea and Saudi Arabia are among other top importers. https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-voice/2023/02/05/growing-alfalfa-in-imperial-county-and-california-wastes-water/69860506007/ https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-... > We make this business extremely profitable for them by selling them 3.4 million acre-feet (1 acre foot =325,851 gallons) of water every year for $35 to $60 per acre-foot. The water you get for your house costs you $800 per acre-foot today, and it could be double that in 10 years' time. You could supply the water needs of 40 million people with that 3.4 million acre-feet. > ... > Alfalfa is used to feed farm animals like pigs and cows. But we export 70% of what we grow in California to Japan and China. The Japanese raise Kobe beef with it and send it back to us for $200 per pound. The Chinese use it to raise pigs to meet their rapidly expanding demand for pork as they become more affluent and eat more meat. > Why don’t they grow their own alfalfa? Because they are short of water and it is so much cheaper to buy ours. In fact, alfalfa has become an instrument for exporting subsidized water. And while its from 2014, still applicable - https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989 > "A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. > "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west."
labrador 4y ago
> I feel like California is very litigious in comparison to other places I’ve lived I'm interested in how you know an area is litigious. I've lived at various places in the US and litigiousness have never surfaced as an indicator.
- jfim 4y ago
  The US is more litigious than many countries. For example, on page 5 of this paper (http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/Ramseyer_681.pdf http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/R...), one can see that the US has over 2x the number of lawsuits per capita than France, and 4x of Canada.
  - throwaway81523 4y ago
    > lawsuits per capita.... Is that litigiousness (eagerness to launch a lawsuit), or too much aggressive and overreaching behaviour that won't stop unless somebody sues to make it stop? Maybe some combination of both.
- imoverclocked 4y ago
  My first indicator when moving to the region was trying to find any kind of rental housing that allowed my two dogs that were both on “restricted breed lists” despite being very well trained and common breeds. Being asked for a dog resume was a first for me here too. Another interesting wrinkle was when I needed to do something simple on my car. I went to an AutoZone and asked to borrow the battery tester or maybe it was the OBD2 reader. They could sell me one but couldn’t lend me one because of laws around people working on their own vehicles. I’ve done this in other states and the front desk just nods and points to a cart or hands me a tool. I’ve run into a few car related regulation oddities with service folks which have brought the cost of certain fixes higher than they needed to be. There are warnings on products due to CA prop 65 that are labeled through the country. You don’t see anything being sold “known to the state of Arizona to cause cancer” for example. In talking with developers, I’ve heard California is quick to make rules (local and not) around housing that conflict with themselves. I understand that housing is a complex social, logistical and geographical challenge. I don’t have much direct experience in this arena but I believe the people I’ve talked with. As a pilot flying out of KRHV, I 100% support flying with unleaded fuels and advocated for it in my local flight school where appropriate. Santa Clara County had a hearing regarding the airport mid-pandemic and the proceeding was a bit of a witch hunt. Instead of looking to solve problems, the common thread seemed to be centered around what they legally had power to do to accomplish their goal of closing the airport despite the stated goal of collecting feedback about the issue. They ended up restricting the sale/delivery of 100LL which may have ultimately lead to a plane crashing after being serviced there. The county is now being sued by AOPA. There have been other things along the way but these are a good sampling of what causes this feeling for me personally.

kurthr 4y ago

Wherever you go Ag is the dominant water user. Whether it's rice in CA or alfalfa in Arizona, that's where the real waste is. If people are going to die it's for corporate export profits. If you stopped the unsustainable farming there would be plenty of water. Something like 30% of that water's farm product isn't even used in the US. This was the most recent article that popped up in tehGoog, but it's a long running issue. If it's just a question of corporate profits and state tax revenue, exactly why do the laws need to be changed to benefit some states with later claims? https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/foreign-companies-face-mounting-criticism-for-using-arizona-water-to-grow-crops-for-export https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/foreign-companies-face-mou...

s0rce 4y ago
This letter from the Southern Nevada water authority is a good read https://www.usbr.gov/ColoradoRiverBasin/documents/SEISScopingComments/41_Southern%20Nevada%20Water%20Authority.pdf https://www.usbr.gov/ColoradoRiverBasin/documents/SEISScopin...
jeffbee 4y ago
It's easy to talk about rice because the fields are flooded and it makes for a certain kind of photograph, but it is hard to see how the water applied to rice fields is "wasted". They grow it in counties that are chronically inundated, where the only reason everything isn't underwater constantly is because of huge levees.
- luckylion 4y ago
  I've never really thought about it, do the fields have a drainage system to get rid of the water? I understand the water's reason is flushing out insects and mice, right? If they don't pump it out and back into a river, and it just slowly seeps into the ground, that's exactly what the article is proposing, isn't it? Just with the added benefit of keeping the rice plants uneaten.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    The way it is practiced in Northern California, about half of the water applied is actually consumed the way you think of the word "consumed": in evaporation and transpiration. The rest either drains off the edge of the field back into the river, or percolates into the ground. When northern California weirs are flowing and the "bypass" fields of the Sacramento are flooded, much of that recharges the groundwater, exactly the storm capture that you'd want. But what the article is discussing are waterworks that would pump smaller rivers like the Russian dry, in any year. They think any water that reaches the Pacific is waste, to hell with fish.
chaostheory 4y ago
Im not saying it’s right, but California is one is the reasons food has been affordable in Western North America for decades. I can only imagine how much food will cost in Alaska and Hawaii without CA ag This is like deficit spending. Eventually, the chickens will come to roost.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  I don't think the commenter is proposing banning exports of food to the rest of north america or other US territories (the non continental us territories/states are too small to even be important). The exports to be concerned about the ones going to non-North American areas, especially alfalfa. I don't want people in developing nations to starve, but the truth is the current agricultural output is unsustainable which is bad for global food security in the long run.
- topkai22 4y ago
  California has a reputation for growing high water use crops in low water areas. California can still provide epics amounts of food for less water usage, it would just be a different mix of products.
  - sroussey 4y ago
    Yes, but there is nuance. Like rice is grown where there is a forced conservation for some other purpose, and hey since we have to have pools of water here, can we make rice? Sure, ok… Later… “CA wasting water by growing rice! Can you believe those idiots? It’s a drought!”
    - shagie 4y ago
      The conservation aspect is interesting... and not exactly forced. https://calricenews.org/2021/09/01/flooding-opportunities-drought-relief-waterbird-program/ https://calricenews.org/2021/09/01/flooding-opportunities-dr... https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1019488080 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1019488080 However, there are other questionable crops that are being grown in California and exported. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado-drought-water-alfalfa-farmers-conservation https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado... > In 2021, nearly 20% of alfalfa produced in the west was shipped abroad, according to analysis of United States Department of Agriculture data. Nationwide, alfalfa exports reached a record high last year, driven by strong demand from China. Japan, South Korea and Saudi Arabia are among other top importers. https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-voice/2023/02/05/growing-alfalfa-in-imperial-county-and-california-wastes-water/69860506007/ https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-... > We make this business extremely profitable for them by selling them 3.4 million acre-feet (1 acre foot =325,851 gallons) of water every year for $35 to $60 per acre-foot. The water you get for your house costs you $800 per acre-foot today, and it could be double that in 10 years' time. You could supply the water needs of 40 million people with that 3.4 million acre-feet. > ... > Alfalfa is used to feed farm animals like pigs and cows. But we export 70% of what we grow in California to Japan and China. The Japanese raise Kobe beef with it and send it back to us for $200 per pound. The Chinese use it to raise pigs to meet their rapidly expanding demand for pork as they become more affluent and eat more meat. > Why don’t they grow their own alfalfa? Because they are short of water and it is so much cheaper to buy ours. In fact, alfalfa has become an instrument for exporting subsidized water. And while its from 2014, still applicable - https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989 > "A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. > "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west."

labrador 4y ago

> I feel like California is very litigious in comparison to other places I’ve lived I'm interested in how you know an area is litigious. I've lived at various places in the US and litigiousness have never surfaced as an indicator.

jfim 4y ago
The US is more litigious than many countries. For example, on page 5 of this paper (http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/Ramseyer_681.pdf http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/R...), one can see that the US has over 2x the number of lawsuits per capita than France, and 4x of Canada.
- throwaway81523 4y ago
  > lawsuits per capita.... Is that litigiousness (eagerness to launch a lawsuit), or too much aggressive and overreaching behaviour that won't stop unless somebody sues to make it stop? Maybe some combination of both.
imoverclocked 4y ago
My first indicator when moving to the region was trying to find any kind of rental housing that allowed my two dogs that were both on “restricted breed lists” despite being very well trained and common breeds. Being asked for a dog resume was a first for me here too. Another interesting wrinkle was when I needed to do something simple on my car. I went to an AutoZone and asked to borrow the battery tester or maybe it was the OBD2 reader. They could sell me one but couldn’t lend me one because of laws around people working on their own vehicles. I’ve done this in other states and the front desk just nods and points to a cart or hands me a tool. I’ve run into a few car related regulation oddities with service folks which have brought the cost of certain fixes higher than they needed to be. There are warnings on products due to CA prop 65 that are labeled through the country. You don’t see anything being sold “known to the state of Arizona to cause cancer” for example. In talking with developers, I’ve heard California is quick to make rules (local and not) around housing that conflict with themselves. I understand that housing is a complex social, logistical and geographical challenge. I don’t have much direct experience in this arena but I believe the people I’ve talked with. As a pilot flying out of KRHV, I 100% support flying with unleaded fuels and advocated for it in my local flight school where appropriate. Santa Clara County had a hearing regarding the airport mid-pandemic and the proceeding was a bit of a witch hunt. Instead of looking to solve problems, the common thread seemed to be centered around what they legally had power to do to accomplish their goal of closing the airport despite the stated goal of collecting feedback about the issue. They ended up restricting the sale/delivery of 100LL which may have ultimately lead to a plane crashing after being serviced there. The county is now being sued by AOPA. There have been other things along the way but these are a good sampling of what causes this feeling for me personally.