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The biggest Communist ('socialist' is not well defined at all and shouldn't really be used in a serious discussion) enterprise, the USSR, failed on its own meri

The biggest Communist ('socialist' is not well defined at all and shouldn't really be used in a serious discussion) enterprise, the USSR, failed on its own merits (or lack thereof). It was in no way strangled by the US. A major reason was that central planning doesn't work that well and you need a market economy - strongly associated with Capitalism - to actually achieve success. Perhaps in some AI-driven future a planned economy etc. could work well, but that certainly hasn't been the case so far. China famously realised this in the late 80's.

skinnymuch 4y ago
Where did you do your learning? Why are you using the word communism? Socialist and Socialism are well defined. Capitalist is a sillier word when used for avg citizens who are exploited and oppressed. Russia was dirt poor in 1917. They became a super power in 30-40 years moving an enormous amount of people out of poverty and lack of modern niceties. China changed in 78 enough already. How do Cuba or Vietnam survive? How did they survive when heavily sanctioned and attacked by capitalist westerners? We have yet to see a capitalist country do that.
- kazinator 4y ago
  Whom they couldn't move out of poverty, they just killed. I can't speak for grandparent, but when I say "communist" disparagingly, I speak as someone who was born and raised in communist Czechoslovakia, who remembers actual communism. I remember being in kindergarten, learning how there was a great, kind man Lenin who loved children. And I was already somehow thinking, something is off: this shit shouldn't be taught to kids like us. So you kids can crumple that up in your woke pipes and smoke it. Pardon me, vape.
  - freemanon 4y ago
    Czechoslovakia didn't have actual communism. It was oppressed by a stalinist Soviet Union. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. People mistake oppression and basically incompetence of the soviet union as proof that communism will never work, but it wasn't communism. During the Lenin era, industrial output actually far outpaced western countries, millions were lifted out of poverty. Same in China, Mao's madness with the great leap forward plunged the country into famine. These weren't communism. There has not been a real communist society in human history. It'll require the population to change its mindset first from greed, ignorance and blind faith, towards critical thinking, socialism (care for others). These are pre-requisites for any ideals, even democracy. The falacy of the neoliberal order is to think greed, excess consumption and the paramount right of the individual will magically bring a prosperous society, where in fact it sets up an exploitative system where the vast majority toils for the tiny minority and stays poor and stupid.
    - kazinator 4y ago
      Actual True Scotsmans communism could easily be worse than the ones we actually had. Because there would be no way for anyone who is capable to use that to their own advantage rather than that of the collective. It could easily be the scummiest form of communism, where even the hope of partaking in corruption, or clandestine free-market activity would be taken away from you.
      - skinnymuch 4y ago
        You can't use True Scotsman sort of fallacy push back in an adult discussion. It's obvious Stalin's Russia was not proper communism. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. Stalin was still at least a communist, but he was not a good person and was not good for communism. Besides the capitalists in America and all the right wing govts America put in power in its cruel crusade against Communism. Your argument is a typical one. See this 18 min video for why that isn't necessarily true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  Socialism is notoriously poorly defined. Where did you develop such certainty about its definition?

skinnymuch 4y ago

Where did you do your learning? Why are you using the word communism? Socialist and Socialism are well defined. Capitalist is a sillier word when used for avg citizens who are exploited and oppressed. Russia was dirt poor in 1917. They became a super power in 30-40 years moving an enormous amount of people out of poverty and lack of modern niceties. China changed in 78 enough already. How do Cuba or Vietnam survive? How did they survive when heavily sanctioned and attacked by capitalist westerners? We have yet to see a capitalist country do that.

kazinator 4y ago
Whom they couldn't move out of poverty, they just killed. I can't speak for grandparent, but when I say "communist" disparagingly, I speak as someone who was born and raised in communist Czechoslovakia, who remembers actual communism. I remember being in kindergarten, learning how there was a great, kind man Lenin who loved children. And I was already somehow thinking, something is off: this shit shouldn't be taught to kids like us. So you kids can crumple that up in your woke pipes and smoke it. Pardon me, vape.
- freemanon 4y ago
  Czechoslovakia didn't have actual communism. It was oppressed by a stalinist Soviet Union. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. People mistake oppression and basically incompetence of the soviet union as proof that communism will never work, but it wasn't communism. During the Lenin era, industrial output actually far outpaced western countries, millions were lifted out of poverty. Same in China, Mao's madness with the great leap forward plunged the country into famine. These weren't communism. There has not been a real communist society in human history. It'll require the population to change its mindset first from greed, ignorance and blind faith, towards critical thinking, socialism (care for others). These are pre-requisites for any ideals, even democracy. The falacy of the neoliberal order is to think greed, excess consumption and the paramount right of the individual will magically bring a prosperous society, where in fact it sets up an exploitative system where the vast majority toils for the tiny minority and stays poor and stupid.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    Actual True Scotsmans communism could easily be worse than the ones we actually had. Because there would be no way for anyone who is capable to use that to their own advantage rather than that of the collective. It could easily be the scummiest form of communism, where even the hope of partaking in corruption, or clandestine free-market activity would be taken away from you.
    - skinnymuch 4y ago
      You can't use True Scotsman sort of fallacy push back in an adult discussion. It's obvious Stalin's Russia was not proper communism. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. Stalin was still at least a communist, but he was not a good person and was not good for communism. Besides the capitalists in America and all the right wing govts America put in power in its cruel crusade against Communism. Your argument is a typical one. See this 18 min video for why that isn't necessarily true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw
bigDinosaur 4y ago
Socialism is notoriously poorly defined. Where did you develop such certainty about its definition?