4 ms·

You need a reality check if you think life today for most people isn't materially better than 50, 100, 500 years ago thanks to improvements driven by capitalism

You need a reality check if you think life today for most people isn't materially better than 50, 100, 500 years ago thanks to improvements driven by capitalism.

avidphantasm 4y ago
Think of how good life would be if socialism had been allowed to flourish and not smothered in the cradle by the US.
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  The biggest Communist ('socialist' is not well defined at all and shouldn't really be used in a serious discussion) enterprise, the USSR, failed on its own merits (or lack thereof). It was in no way strangled by the US. A major reason was that central planning doesn't work that well and you need a market economy - strongly associated with Capitalism - to actually achieve success. Perhaps in some AI-driven future a planned economy etc. could work well, but that certainly hasn't been the case so far. China famously realised this in the late 80's.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Where did you do your learning? Why are you using the word communism? Socialist and Socialism are well defined. Capitalist is a sillier word when used for avg citizens who are exploited and oppressed. Russia was dirt poor in 1917. They became a super power in 30-40 years moving an enormous amount of people out of poverty and lack of modern niceties. China changed in 78 enough already. How do Cuba or Vietnam survive? How did they survive when heavily sanctioned and attacked by capitalist westerners? We have yet to see a capitalist country do that.
    - kazinator 4y ago
      Whom they couldn't move out of poverty, they just killed. I can't speak for grandparent, but when I say "communist" disparagingly, I speak as someone who was born and raised in communist Czechoslovakia, who remembers actual communism. I remember being in kindergarten, learning how there was a great, kind man Lenin who loved children. And I was already somehow thinking, something is off: this shit shouldn't be taught to kids like us. So you kids can crumple that up in your woke pipes and smoke it. Pardon me, vape.
      - freemanon 4y ago
        Czechoslovakia didn't have actual communism. It was oppressed by a stalinist Soviet Union. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. People mistake oppression and basically incompetence of the soviet union as proof that communism will never work, but it wasn't communism. During the Lenin era, industrial output actually far outpaced western countries, millions were lifted out of poverty. Same in China, Mao's madness with the great leap forward plunged the country into famine. These weren't communism. There has not been a real communist society in human history. It'll require the population to change its mindset first from greed, ignorance and blind faith, towards critical thinking, socialism (care for others). These are pre-requisites for any ideals, even democracy. The falacy of the neoliberal order is to think greed, excess consumption and the paramount right of the individual will magically bring a prosperous society, where in fact it sets up an exploitative system where the vast majority toils for the tiny minority and stays poor and stupid.
        kazinator 4y ago
        Actual True Scotsmans communism could easily be worse than the ones we actually had. Because there would be no way for anyone who is capable to use that to their own advantage rather than that of the collective. It could easily be the scummiest form of communism, where even the hope of partaking in corruption, or clandestine free-market activity would be taken away from you.
        skinnymuch 4y ago
        You can't use True Scotsman sort of fallacy push back in an adult discussion. It's obvious Stalin's Russia was not proper communism. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. Stalin was still at least a communist, but he was not a good person and was not good for communism. Besides the capitalists in America and all the right wing govts America put in power in its cruel crusade against Communism. Your argument is a typical one. See this 18 min video for why that isn't necessarily true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw
    - bigDinosaur 4y ago
      Socialism is notoriously poorly defined. Where did you develop such certainty about its definition?
- belltaco 4y ago
  Can you explain how empty grocery stores in USSR is somehow the US's fault? http://beelineblogger.blogspot.com/2016/01/how-supermarket-visit-brought-down.html http://beelineblogger.blogspot.com/2016/01/how-supermarket-v...
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    I was going to start this but the first few paragraphs already have tons of lies. Where are the non capitalists saying any of these things? The reason for the collapse of USSR is wrong in the first paragraph. I bet this author thinks Russia isn’t where it is today because of capitalism and the US. Or Putin isn’t a result of US intervention of capitalism in Russia.
    - Nasrudith 4y ago
      He didn't say anything about 'non-capitalists'. Your little noisy clique isn't as large as you think it is. Besides, given how expansively I've seen "capitalism" defined on the internet by its detractors, conservation of energy qualifies as capitalist oppression.
      - skinnymuch 4y ago
        > He didn't say anything about 'non-capitalists'. Your little noisy clique isn't as large as you think it is. The Soviets and Socialists are anti-capitalists. How are you defending OP/OP's link that attempts to show the evils of socialism/Soviets but don't know the Soviets and socialists are anti-capitalists? > Besides, given how expansively I've seen "capitalism" defined on the internet by its detractors, conservation of energy qualifies as capitalist oppression. Capitalism is the means of production being owned by private individual capitalists. Think private property. There's one basic definition of capitalism. None of this was difficult to learn once I did some reading. Or even just watching some non-mainstream and non-right wing videos. Just like I've done with media from the mainstream and the right to see where they are coming from.
- biscottigelato 4y ago
  I am assuming you are sarcastic instead of extremely ignorant.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  The capitalist defenders are in full force. They can’t imagine right wing ideals may not be the best.

You need a reality check if you think life today for most people isn't materially better than 50, 100, 500 years ago thanks to improvements driven by capitalism.

avidphantasm 4y ago

Think of how good life would be if socialism had been allowed to flourish and not smothered in the cradle by the US.

bigDinosaur 4y ago
The biggest Communist ('socialist' is not well defined at all and shouldn't really be used in a serious discussion) enterprise, the USSR, failed on its own merits (or lack thereof). It was in no way strangled by the US. A major reason was that central planning doesn't work that well and you need a market economy - strongly associated with Capitalism - to actually achieve success. Perhaps in some AI-driven future a planned economy etc. could work well, but that certainly hasn't been the case so far. China famously realised this in the late 80's.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Where did you do your learning? Why are you using the word communism? Socialist and Socialism are well defined. Capitalist is a sillier word when used for avg citizens who are exploited and oppressed. Russia was dirt poor in 1917. They became a super power in 30-40 years moving an enormous amount of people out of poverty and lack of modern niceties. China changed in 78 enough already. How do Cuba or Vietnam survive? How did they survive when heavily sanctioned and attacked by capitalist westerners? We have yet to see a capitalist country do that.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    Whom they couldn't move out of poverty, they just killed. I can't speak for grandparent, but when I say "communist" disparagingly, I speak as someone who was born and raised in communist Czechoslovakia, who remembers actual communism. I remember being in kindergarten, learning how there was a great, kind man Lenin who loved children. And I was already somehow thinking, something is off: this shit shouldn't be taught to kids like us. So you kids can crumple that up in your woke pipes and smoke it. Pardon me, vape.
    - freemanon 4y ago
      Czechoslovakia didn't have actual communism. It was oppressed by a stalinist Soviet Union. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. People mistake oppression and basically incompetence of the soviet union as proof that communism will never work, but it wasn't communism. During the Lenin era, industrial output actually far outpaced western countries, millions were lifted out of poverty. Same in China, Mao's madness with the great leap forward plunged the country into famine. These weren't communism. There has not been a real communist society in human history. It'll require the population to change its mindset first from greed, ignorance and blind faith, towards critical thinking, socialism (care for others). These are pre-requisites for any ideals, even democracy. The falacy of the neoliberal order is to think greed, excess consumption and the paramount right of the individual will magically bring a prosperous society, where in fact it sets up an exploitative system where the vast majority toils for the tiny minority and stays poor and stupid.
      - kazinator 4y ago
        Actual True Scotsmans communism could easily be worse than the ones we actually had. Because there would be no way for anyone who is capable to use that to their own advantage rather than that of the collective. It could easily be the scummiest form of communism, where even the hope of partaking in corruption, or clandestine free-market activity would be taken away from you.
        skinnymuch 4y ago
        You can't use True Scotsman sort of fallacy push back in an adult discussion. It's obvious Stalin's Russia was not proper communism. Lenin was nothing like Stalin. Stalin was still at least a communist, but he was not a good person and was not good for communism. Besides the capitalists in America and all the right wing govts America put in power in its cruel crusade against Communism. Your argument is a typical one. See this 18 min video for why that isn't necessarily true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbkMDb1jJCw
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    Socialism is notoriously poorly defined. Where did you develop such certainty about its definition?
belltaco 4y ago
Can you explain how empty grocery stores in USSR is somehow the US's fault? http://beelineblogger.blogspot.com/2016/01/how-supermarket-visit-brought-down.html http://beelineblogger.blogspot.com/2016/01/how-supermarket-v...
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  I was going to start this but the first few paragraphs already have tons of lies. Where are the non capitalists saying any of these things? The reason for the collapse of USSR is wrong in the first paragraph. I bet this author thinks Russia isn’t where it is today because of capitalism and the US. Or Putin isn’t a result of US intervention of capitalism in Russia.
  - Nasrudith 4y ago
    He didn't say anything about 'non-capitalists'. Your little noisy clique isn't as large as you think it is. Besides, given how expansively I've seen "capitalism" defined on the internet by its detractors, conservation of energy qualifies as capitalist oppression.
    - skinnymuch 4y ago
      > He didn't say anything about 'non-capitalists'. Your little noisy clique isn't as large as you think it is. The Soviets and Socialists are anti-capitalists. How are you defending OP/OP's link that attempts to show the evils of socialism/Soviets but don't know the Soviets and socialists are anti-capitalists? > Besides, given how expansively I've seen "capitalism" defined on the internet by its detractors, conservation of energy qualifies as capitalist oppression. Capitalism is the means of production being owned by private individual capitalists. Think private property. There's one basic definition of capitalism. None of this was difficult to learn once I did some reading. Or even just watching some non-mainstream and non-right wing videos. Just like I've done with media from the mainstream and the right to see where they are coming from.
biscottigelato 4y ago
I am assuming you are sarcastic instead of extremely ignorant.
skinnymuch 4y ago
The capitalist defenders are in full force. They can’t imagine right wing ideals may not be the best.