4 ms·

>We all know this "40 hours" nonsense is just historical happenstance, not some ideal or even well-reasoned number, let alone balanced in the interest of the ov

>We all know this "40 hours" nonsense is just historical happenstance, not some ideal or even well-reasoned number, let alone balanced in the interest of the overwhelming majority (working people). The more and more I see cases like this that exist, the more I feel it's yet more supporting evidence that the US is a failing democracy. We can point fingers and play responsibility games, we can claim its minority protection (are wealthy and powerful individuals really a minority that need more protection in our current structure or should they even be considered a minority), but at the end of the day it doesn't seem to be working in some respects. If we aren't seeing labor law improvements and most fall in labor, something seems amiss. I'm not advocating for mob rule, there are very good reasons for minority protections, but in some cases when the majority of a democratic society abhors the state of affairs yet we continually have no significant influence to at least try something different, that to me says we're in a failing or failed democracy charading around as a democracy. The older I get, the more I want to call a duck a duck if it walks, quacks, and looks like a duck.

flangola7 4y ago
We had a literal coup attempt two years ago. Of course our democracy is faulting, it's been disintegrating for many years.
np- 4y ago
To be pedantic, the US has never been a democracy, it has always been a republic and it was built in to give land equal or more power than individuals. Though I don’t deny that it seems to be either in or approaching a failure mode (though perhaps the observant may notice it never worked as it was advertised even from Day 1, there was never really a success mode).
- renewiltord 4y ago
  What exactly is pedantic about that? The US is a constitutional democracy and a republic. Just like India. Unlike the UK that's a constitutional democracy and a monarchy. It's like saying something is "technically not a car, it's electric".
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    Correct! This thing about "republic not a democracy" is so absurd. Don't people learn this stuff in middle school?
  - a_humean 4y ago
    Generally when I see someone say "republic not a democracy" they are typically Americans with (far) right authoritarian/illiberal political beliefs that you don't say out loud in polite company, but if you call them out on it you get called an alarmist.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    The proper word here would be "archaic" - it's a correct claim per se, but they're using a definition of "democracy" that was the prevailing one at the time the US constitution was written.
ghiculescu 4y ago
To make this claim about the US is to overlook that basically all western countries have 40 hour work weeks. Are they all failing democracies too? Its a shame how many Americans are too busy hating America to look outside the border and see how good they have it, but also how most of their “uniquely American” problems are not unique at all. (My perspective is as an Australian living in America. And my comment doesn’t apply to guns.)
- lmm 4y ago
  US working hours are legitimately higher than most of the developed world.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    And worker rights are objectively much worse.
- vouwfietsman 4y ago
  This is not really true though, 40 hour working weeks are very much not something western countries "have" in the general sense of having a constitution or police force. In many western countries, especially northern Europe, it is a given that parents (especially women, but also men) work less than 40 hours, even in demanding jobs. As a more general example, the municipalities of many cities in the Netherlands consider 36 hours a full time job, in the sense that getting paid more than 36 hours is actually beyond your contract and working that long is very unlikely to happen. Personally I work a demanding tech job with 32 hours a week, like others in this thread, this does not hurt my performance. The real problem, and reason I suspect you use the word "have", is that this is fundamentally a cultural issue where the resolution is not for "the bad companies to stop demanding all this work" but actually the entire society moving away from the idea that work is somehow the only way to constructively spend your time, and for money being the only value that is worth pursuing. Concretely what this means is that the fetishization of work must stop. This includes hustle culture, the idea of "side" or "passive" income, and the glorification of high salaries and high work "ethic" (see the use of the word ethic there, super interesting right). Opening hackernews itself, you can see that this mindset is widespread and actually not enforced by companies. If you look around the world, you will see that many societies don't work this way. Western societies became like this, for better or worse, through religion, specifically protestant christianity. If we look back now, saying that this is a good or bad thing is complete nonsense, but looking at the present we can desire for things to be different, and that desire is what is missing.
renewiltord 4y ago
The US is a fully functioning representative democracy. People in small groups always overestimate the popularity of their cause. Quite simply there are other people. And those people often have other opinions.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  As someone who moved out of the US and goes back to visit family every year ... I'd say it is barely functioning. Functioning, but barely. I had to go to the US consulate a few weeks ago. I was literally facepalming at the inefficiencies of it. It was laughable.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Haha, right, the government is kind of incompetent, but it is the government we elect so it functions as a democracy. It just doesn't function very well as a government.

flangola7 4y ago

We had a literal coup attempt two years ago. Of course our democracy is faulting, it's been disintegrating for many years.

np- 4y ago

To be pedantic, the US has never been a democracy, it has always been a republic and it was built in to give land equal or more power than individuals. Though I don’t deny that it seems to be either in or approaching a failure mode (though perhaps the observant may notice it never worked as it was advertised even from Day 1, there was never really a success mode).

renewiltord 4y ago
What exactly is pedantic about that? The US is a constitutional democracy and a republic. Just like India. Unlike the UK that's a constitutional democracy and a monarchy. It's like saying something is "technically not a car, it's electric".
- goodpoint 4y ago
  Correct! This thing about "republic not a democracy" is so absurd. Don't people learn this stuff in middle school?
- a_humean 4y ago
  Generally when I see someone say "republic not a democracy" they are typically Americans with (far) right authoritarian/illiberal political beliefs that you don't say out loud in polite company, but if you call them out on it you get called an alarmist.
- int_19h 4y ago
  The proper word here would be "archaic" - it's a correct claim per se, but they're using a definition of "democracy" that was the prevailing one at the time the US constitution was written.

ghiculescu 4y ago

To make this claim about the US is to overlook that basically all western countries have 40 hour work weeks. Are they all failing democracies too? Its a shame how many Americans are too busy hating America to look outside the border and see how good they have it, but also how most of their “uniquely American” problems are not unique at all. (My perspective is as an Australian living in America. And my comment doesn’t apply to guns.)

lmm 4y ago
US working hours are legitimately higher than most of the developed world.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  And worker rights are objectively much worse.
vouwfietsman 4y ago
This is not really true though, 40 hour working weeks are very much not something western countries "have" in the general sense of having a constitution or police force. In many western countries, especially northern Europe, it is a given that parents (especially women, but also men) work less than 40 hours, even in demanding jobs. As a more general example, the municipalities of many cities in the Netherlands consider 36 hours a full time job, in the sense that getting paid more than 36 hours is actually beyond your contract and working that long is very unlikely to happen. Personally I work a demanding tech job with 32 hours a week, like others in this thread, this does not hurt my performance. The real problem, and reason I suspect you use the word "have", is that this is fundamentally a cultural issue where the resolution is not for "the bad companies to stop demanding all this work" but actually the entire society moving away from the idea that work is somehow the only way to constructively spend your time, and for money being the only value that is worth pursuing. Concretely what this means is that the fetishization of work must stop. This includes hustle culture, the idea of "side" or "passive" income, and the glorification of high salaries and high work "ethic" (see the use of the word ethic there, super interesting right). Opening hackernews itself, you can see that this mindset is widespread and actually not enforced by companies. If you look around the world, you will see that many societies don't work this way. Western societies became like this, for better or worse, through religion, specifically protestant christianity. If we look back now, saying that this is a good or bad thing is complete nonsense, but looking at the present we can desire for things to be different, and that desire is what is missing.

renewiltord 4y ago

The US is a fully functioning representative democracy. People in small groups always overestimate the popularity of their cause. Quite simply there are other people. And those people often have other opinions.

withinboredom 4y ago
As someone who moved out of the US and goes back to visit family every year ... I'd say it is barely functioning. Functioning, but barely. I had to go to the US consulate a few weeks ago. I was literally facepalming at the inefficiencies of it. It was laughable.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Haha, right, the government is kind of incompetent, but it is the government we elect so it functions as a democracy. It just doesn't function very well as a government.