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There's also that we once had a society where one person in a household worked 8 hours a day and one did house chores (including raising kids) for 8 hours a day

by dheera 4y ago

There's also that we once had a society where one person in a household worked 8 hours a day and one did house chores (including raising kids) for 8 hours a day. In a modern, fair society, that should translate into both people working 4 hours a day and house chores 4 hours a day. Unfortunately the reality right now is we're pushing both people to each work 12 hours a day AND do 4 hours of chores on top of that.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
Who is pushing for people to work extended hours? Assuming you’re talking about the tech industry and US market. I find this sentiment to be pretty rare.
- dheera 4y ago
  > Who is pushing for people to work extended hours? Assuming you’re talking about the tech industry and US market. US tech industry can have some bad hours, but other industries in the US can be much worse. Talk to some nurses, Wall Street people, delivery drivers, they all have it much worse than most tech people. As for other countries, China's unofficially standard work schedule in tech is now 996 (9am-9pm, 6 days a week), Japan's finance work schedule has been 9am-midnight for a long time, most other Asian countries aren't much better.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  If you just factor in an hour commute each way that many people have that's already 10 hours. In most professional jobs its not great to be the guy in the door at 9 and out at 5 on the dot if you want a promotion. So that 8 hours turns to 9 and add in the commute you are at 10 or 11 hours of work.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I'm sorry to be so disagreeable, I understand your point including commute times into "hours of work", but I don't think that's what was being referred to here. (I also think there's a pervasive tendency to overstate commute times - 1 hour is an extremely long commute, a quick Google search shows the US average is ~27 minutes, which is still long, but...): > In most professional jobs its not great to be the guy in the door at 9 and out at 5 on the dot if you want a promotion. In my time in tech roles on the East Coast, I haven't encountered this sentiment. Maybe if there was extreme inflexibility in one's schedule, I could see it frustrating some people, but for the most part I've only ever seen (1) people getting promoted for their work and the impression of their work or (2) active ladder climbing, which can be done within the confines of an 8 hour day. The most common reason I see people work above and beyond their hours is a primarily-self-generated sense of compulsion that's mostly disconnected from the expectations of their supervisors or peers. Maybe I'm lucky.
ambrose2 4y ago
There’s also the argument that you could live off of one salary and downsize / live frugally (two-income trap), but things are more expensive (e.g. the world is more safe now, but that also makes it more expensive).
- dheera 4y ago
  > you could live off of one salary and downsize / live frugally I mean, sure, I do now, but I'm single and have no kids, and I make a tech industry salary. Just some back of the envelope calculations suggests it's pretty damn impossible to raise kids on one salary now.
- jvvw 4y ago
  We have sort-of done this (salary disparity means that we are on more than half what we originally were). I do find it hard though in many ways. I've done intellectual things all my life, got a PhD in maths etc. and now I'm basically a housewife. I do get some time to myself, but I miss the connection to other people that you get with work. Ideally I think I'd like to work perhaps 5-10 hours a week but there aren't really jobs around that are interesting doing those sorts of hours. I tried a couple of things (consultancy, university teaching) but they didn't really work for various reasons. With one person working, you're also increasing risk. If that person loses their job and can't easily find another one, you're more likely to be stuck. We think that's pretty unlikely and we've made sure we have a safety net, but it's definitely something to consider if you go down this route. Once you have children in school who are settled and happy, then moving for a new job becomes a much bigger deal. I'm very conscious that the longer I don't work, the harder it will probably be for me to find work again.

by dheera 4y ago

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

Who is pushing for people to work extended hours? Assuming you’re talking about the tech industry and US market. I find this sentiment to be pretty rare.

dheera 4y ago
> Who is pushing for people to work extended hours? Assuming you’re talking about the tech industry and US market. US tech industry can have some bad hours, but other industries in the US can be much worse. Talk to some nurses, Wall Street people, delivery drivers, they all have it much worse than most tech people. As for other countries, China's unofficially standard work schedule in tech is now 996 (9am-9pm, 6 days a week), Japan's finance work schedule has been 9am-midnight for a long time, most other Asian countries aren't much better.
wonderwonder 4y ago
If you just factor in an hour commute each way that many people have that's already 10 hours. In most professional jobs its not great to be the guy in the door at 9 and out at 5 on the dot if you want a promotion. So that 8 hours turns to 9 and add in the commute you are at 10 or 11 hours of work.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  I'm sorry to be so disagreeable, I understand your point including commute times into "hours of work", but I don't think that's what was being referred to here. (I also think there's a pervasive tendency to overstate commute times - 1 hour is an extremely long commute, a quick Google search shows the US average is ~27 minutes, which is still long, but...): > In most professional jobs its not great to be the guy in the door at 9 and out at 5 on the dot if you want a promotion. In my time in tech roles on the East Coast, I haven't encountered this sentiment. Maybe if there was extreme inflexibility in one's schedule, I could see it frustrating some people, but for the most part I've only ever seen (1) people getting promoted for their work and the impression of their work or (2) active ladder climbing, which can be done within the confines of an 8 hour day. The most common reason I see people work above and beyond their hours is a primarily-self-generated sense of compulsion that's mostly disconnected from the expectations of their supervisors or peers. Maybe I'm lucky.

ambrose2 4y ago

There’s also the argument that you could live off of one salary and downsize / live frugally (two-income trap), but things are more expensive (e.g. the world is more safe now, but that also makes it more expensive).

dheera 4y ago
> you could live off of one salary and downsize / live frugally I mean, sure, I do now, but I'm single and have no kids, and I make a tech industry salary. Just some back of the envelope calculations suggests it's pretty damn impossible to raise kids on one salary now.
jvvw 4y ago
We have sort-of done this (salary disparity means that we are on more than half what we originally were). I do find it hard though in many ways. I've done intellectual things all my life, got a PhD in maths etc. and now I'm basically a housewife. I do get some time to myself, but I miss the connection to other people that you get with work. Ideally I think I'd like to work perhaps 5-10 hours a week but there aren't really jobs around that are interesting doing those sorts of hours. I tried a couple of things (consultancy, university teaching) but they didn't really work for various reasons. With one person working, you're also increasing risk. If that person loses their job and can't easily find another one, you're more likely to be stuck. We think that's pretty unlikely and we've made sure we have a safety net, but it's definitely something to consider if you go down this route. Once you have children in school who are settled and happy, then moving for a new job becomes a much bigger deal. I'm very conscious that the longer I don't work, the harder it will probably be for me to find work again.