6 ms·

The thing is, this becomes theater of working. Imagine commuting to the office 60-90 minutes each direction just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Want to talk

by shmatt 4y ago

The thing is, this becomes theater of working. Imagine commuting to the office 60-90 minutes each direction just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will) And im not even going to start on the complete waste of time of people in an open space talking non stop about their fantasy football draft. I haven't heard those words in 3 years, it was nice that way

posguy 4y ago
*Amazon Chime, not Zoom :D
- nixass 4y ago
  Press pound key
  - ed_elliott_asc 4y ago
    £?
    - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
      #
EarthIsHome 4y ago
> Imagine commuting to the office 60-90 minutes each direction Assuming 240 work days per year. A one-hour roundtrip commute means you're spending 10 *WHOLE* days in your commute per year. Two-hour roundtrip? That's 20 whole days. Three-hour roundtrip? One whole month.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - whynaut 4y ago
    Yes, let’s trivialize people’s very real commutes with your made up number, cmon, I’m sure you’ve got more
  - IlliOnato 4y ago
    Three-hour roundtrip in congested cities like Boston or Los Angeles is not made-up or even rare occurrence.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
jonas21 4y ago
> just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Presumably, that's what the return to office plan is trying to fix. Right now, if you go into the office, you're spending a lot of time in zoom calls because half the people in every meeting aren't there. If everyone's in the office, you can just meet in person.
- rwmj 4y ago
  Everyone I work with barr one person lives in a different country, and it would be impossible (for visa reasons, mainly) for us to move to one place. So if I was in an office, I'd still be videoconferencing as much as ever.
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 4y ago
  Maybe if you work for a small company or a small department where every person is co-located. Larger companies usually have people around the world that need to communicate. That happens over teleconferencing.
- Quikinterp 4y ago
  Does amazon ensure that team members are all based on a physical office location? At my work for instance we have a few members on my team from a different country, so forcing us to go in office wouldn't end zoom calls.
- quest88 4y ago
  Yes in theory you could. I've found it different in practice. Not everyone sits in the same building or on the same floor, and meeting rooms are limited. So you still end up on zoom calls, but now you've commuted. I sometimes wonder if execs forget what it's like not to have an assistant, or if they've forgotten the power they have so that people _want_ to be in the same room as them. Or maybe they simply like seeing on the peons that work for them.
- outside1234 4y ago
  Except that now teams are divided across sites, so not even sure you can make the statement that if everyone showed up in person that it wouldn't still be a Teams call.
elAhmo 4y ago
> Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will) This is such a good angle and comment!
CobrastanJorji 4y ago
Amazon is somewhat infamous for their willingness to make workers spend unpaid time getting ready to work. They're the folks that took "we don't want to pay our employees to stand in long security lines to get into or out of our warehouse" to the Supreme Court and won. Employees who stayed with Amazon after that because it was only being done to lower paid employees enjoy little of my sympathy.
potatolicious 4y ago
> "Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will)" This wouldn't even be practicable - pretty much every BigTech company has offices spread all over the country, if not the world, and the odds are you work day-to-day with someone who sits nowhere near you. If you are forced to come in and you weren't allowed teleconferencing, you'd literally get nothing done. The idea that you can staff whole teams of people (and their dependencies!) in a way that they're all guaranteed to sit within a short walk of each other is straight-up madness. Beyond a certain scale this is quite impossible. Heck, even in the same city this isn't practicable. When I worked at Google we frequently had teams and their dependencies spread across building all over campus. Even if everyone involved sat in Mountain View, in an office, you still can't get away from teleconferencing since it takes half an hour for someone to commute from their building to yours!
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  So you’re saying, being remote is okay as long as that remote in another office?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    "It's okay as long as you willingly participate in the theater and power dynamic." The problem isn't really remote as much as employers having the ability to grossly change working conditions on a whim with no worker recourse. C-level doesn't have any proof on site is a superior operating model, they feel it is, and they believe that's good enough to call the plebs back. Who was the last person you knew who gave up substantial power willingly?
  - potatolicious 4y ago
    Hah, that does seem to be what the companies are saying, which is entirely silly. My personal take is that RTO mandates are sorely misguided. Let the people who want an office work in them, and let the people who want to be remote be remote! The net difference is pretty close to nil, especially at large companies where meetings are teleconferencing-by-default! If anything productivity has increased in the remote era. You no longer burn the first 5 minutes of every meeting kicking the previous person out of the conference room. And then another 5 minutes to wait for someone who had to sprint from halfway across campus to make it to the meeting room from their previous meeting room. Plus the mad dash scramble to claim meeting rooms since there obviously aren't enough for everyone. In the remote-first world I just... click a button to hang up. And click another button to join the next call. Everyone is on time, meetings start and end on time. People are more inclined to take minutes and notes. It just seems to... work better. [edit] Also, again, to be clear: people who like working from offices should be allowed to do so! There is nothing wrong with making friends with your coworkers, going to lunch with them, grabbing beers after work, or anything like that. I just shouldn't be forced to do these things with you! I have a family I want to get back to! I resent being forced to have parasocial relationships with colleagues so they can fulfill their need for social contact! They should find other people who want to do that with them, because forcing me to be there just so I can fulfill someone else's parasocial need is honestly pretty twisted.
CobrastanJorji 4y ago
In Amazon's case, it might not be theater. Amazon owns around a dozen skyscrapers in downtown Seattle. Amazon has a massive number of employees in downtown Seattle, and whether those people are downtown or not makes a significant difference to the real estate values in downtown Seattle. Making their employees come into the office may in fact mean a significant financial reward to Amazon, but not because the employees are doing better work. Also, Andrew Jassy specifically has a number of personal financial interests in the Seattle area, including the local hockey team and the nearby Key Arena. Keeping downtown expensive and full of people is in his personal interests.
- otikik 4y ago
  Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store
  - weeblewobble 4y ago
    It’s a good song but I’m struggling to see how it applies to the topic under discussion. Maybe if Amazon was paying their workers in Amazon gift cards I could see it. Or maybe if Amazon owned apartments that they rented out to their employees? Afaik that’s not the case. GP said they own “skyscrapers” but really they own their own office buildings which are mostly like 4-10 stories tall and do not include apartments
    - macinjosh 4y ago
      It applies because Amazon itself, as well as its owners and likely executives of Amazon have personal financial interest in Seattle real estate and the downtown economy. This is the modern, more low key "company store".
      - celtain 4y ago
        I still don't understand the connection. I assume the term "company store" is being used to invoke the exploitative nature of living in a company town and being paid in scrip. How does "a major local employer wants the local economy to thrive" lead to more exploitation than usual? If anything, I'd expect a thriving local economy to mean that there's more competition for workers, increasing their bargaining power and reducing the probability/severity of worker exploitation.
bradgessler 4y ago
This is what I don't understand about return-to-office mandates for global software/services companies. Even 10 years ago when I'd visit Google HQ, I'd always end up on a conference room on a Google Meet with other Googler's from around the world. What is the point of going to an office to be on video calls all day?
- utexaspunk 4y ago
  Maintaining the value of commercial real estate?
Pet_Ant 4y ago
> Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days I like this idea. It supports the ostensible goal and removes a real annoyance. If I have to come then I sure has hell shouldn't have to be on a call.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
"just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom" this is exactly it; for a few months prior to quitting Google at the end of 2021 I made an effort to go into the office because my morale (and productivity) at home had sunk to desperate levels. I wanted RTO to be the solution for that, but when I got into the office it was just... nobody else there, or at least not reliably so, and needed to VC with everyone anyways. And then that got piled in with commute and parking woes, which got worse ever year... why even bother? I quit, instead. Have a fully remote gig now, and while I miss in-person work - - and the Google $$ I was getting -- I don't miss spending 2 hours of my life driving. I'm sure things have improved some with more people returning to office, but the dynamic is forever changed as a result of COVID. There's a whole generation of hires who started during remote work. I don't like WFH, but I dislike commuting to torture-zone deadsville even more.
stonecharioteer 4y ago
This was why I left my previous company. The CTO would ask me to come to work, he lived next door to the office, and I loved 90 mind away. I'd leave home at 8, be in by 10 only to get a text from him at 11 that he's going to WFH. My team members did the same. Picked it up from him. I tried my best to stay level headed but I had it and quit. Culture is respecting your colleagues' time. He and his employees had no respect for any of it.

by shmatt 4y ago

posguy 4y ago

*Amazon Chime, not Zoom :D

nixass 4y ago
Press pound key
- ed_elliott_asc 4y ago
  £?
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    #

EarthIsHome 4y ago

> Imagine commuting to the office 60-90 minutes each direction Assuming 240 work days per year. A one-hour roundtrip commute means you're spending 10 *WHOLE* days in your commute per year. Two-hour roundtrip? That's 20 whole days. Three-hour roundtrip? One whole month.

dahfizz 4y ago
[flagged]
- whynaut 4y ago
  Yes, let’s trivialize people’s very real commutes with your made up number, cmon, I’m sure you’ve got more
- IlliOnato 4y ago
  Three-hour roundtrip in congested cities like Boston or Los Angeles is not made-up or even rare occurrence.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

jonas21 4y ago

> just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Presumably, that's what the return to office plan is trying to fix. Right now, if you go into the office, you're spending a lot of time in zoom calls because half the people in every meeting aren't there. If everyone's in the office, you can just meet in person.

rwmj 4y ago
Everyone I work with barr one person lives in a different country, and it would be impossible (for visa reasons, mainly) for us to move to one place. So if I was in an office, I'd still be videoconferencing as much as ever.
jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 4y ago
Maybe if you work for a small company or a small department where every person is co-located. Larger companies usually have people around the world that need to communicate. That happens over teleconferencing.
Quikinterp 4y ago
Does amazon ensure that team members are all based on a physical office location? At my work for instance we have a few members on my team from a different country, so forcing us to go in office wouldn't end zoom calls.
quest88 4y ago
Yes in theory you could. I've found it different in practice. Not everyone sits in the same building or on the same floor, and meeting rooms are limited. So you still end up on zoom calls, but now you've commuted. I sometimes wonder if execs forget what it's like not to have an assistant, or if they've forgotten the power they have so that people _want_ to be in the same room as them. Or maybe they simply like seeing on the peons that work for them.
outside1234 4y ago
Except that now teams are divided across sites, so not even sure you can make the statement that if everyone showed up in person that it wouldn't still be a Teams call.

elAhmo 4y ago

> Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will) This is such a good angle and comment!

CobrastanJorji 4y ago

Amazon is somewhat infamous for their willingness to make workers spend unpaid time getting ready to work. They're the folks that took "we don't want to pay our employees to stand in long security lines to get into or out of our warehouse" to the Supreme Court and won. Employees who stayed with Amazon after that because it was only being done to lower paid employees enjoy little of my sympathy.

potatolicious 4y ago

> "Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days (but none will)" This wouldn't even be practicable - pretty much every BigTech company has offices spread all over the country, if not the world, and the odds are you work day-to-day with someone who sits nowhere near you. If you are forced to come in and you weren't allowed teleconferencing, you'd literally get nothing done. The idea that you can staff whole teams of people (and their dependencies!) in a way that they're all guaranteed to sit within a short walk of each other is straight-up madness. Beyond a certain scale this is quite impossible. Heck, even in the same city this isn't practicable. When I worked at Google we frequently had teams and their dependencies spread across building all over campus. Even if everyone involved sat in Mountain View, in an office, you still can't get away from teleconferencing since it takes half an hour for someone to commute from their building to yours!

darth_avocado 4y ago
So you’re saying, being remote is okay as long as that remote in another office?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  "It's okay as long as you willingly participate in the theater and power dynamic." The problem isn't really remote as much as employers having the ability to grossly change working conditions on a whim with no worker recourse. C-level doesn't have any proof on site is a superior operating model, they feel it is, and they believe that's good enough to call the plebs back. Who was the last person you knew who gave up substantial power willingly?
- potatolicious 4y ago
  Hah, that does seem to be what the companies are saying, which is entirely silly. My personal take is that RTO mandates are sorely misguided. Let the people who want an office work in them, and let the people who want to be remote be remote! The net difference is pretty close to nil, especially at large companies where meetings are teleconferencing-by-default! If anything productivity has increased in the remote era. You no longer burn the first 5 minutes of every meeting kicking the previous person out of the conference room. And then another 5 minutes to wait for someone who had to sprint from halfway across campus to make it to the meeting room from their previous meeting room. Plus the mad dash scramble to claim meeting rooms since there obviously aren't enough for everyone. In the remote-first world I just... click a button to hang up. And click another button to join the next call. Everyone is on time, meetings start and end on time. People are more inclined to take minutes and notes. It just seems to... work better. [edit] Also, again, to be clear: people who like working from offices should be allowed to do so! There is nothing wrong with making friends with your coworkers, going to lunch with them, grabbing beers after work, or anything like that. I just shouldn't be forced to do these things with you! I have a family I want to get back to! I resent being forced to have parasocial relationships with colleagues so they can fulfill their need for social contact! They should find other people who want to do that with them, because forcing me to be there just so I can fulfill someone else's parasocial need is honestly pretty twisted.

CobrastanJorji 4y ago

In Amazon's case, it might not be theater. Amazon owns around a dozen skyscrapers in downtown Seattle. Amazon has a massive number of employees in downtown Seattle, and whether those people are downtown or not makes a significant difference to the real estate values in downtown Seattle. Making their employees come into the office may in fact mean a significant financial reward to Amazon, but not because the employees are doing better work. Also, Andrew Jassy specifically has a number of personal financial interests in the Seattle area, including the local hockey team and the nearby Key Arena. Keeping downtown expensive and full of people is in his personal interests.

otikik 4y ago
Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store
- weeblewobble 4y ago
  It’s a good song but I’m struggling to see how it applies to the topic under discussion. Maybe if Amazon was paying their workers in Amazon gift cards I could see it. Or maybe if Amazon owned apartments that they rented out to their employees? Afaik that’s not the case. GP said they own “skyscrapers” but really they own their own office buildings which are mostly like 4-10 stories tall and do not include apartments
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    It applies because Amazon itself, as well as its owners and likely executives of Amazon have personal financial interest in Seattle real estate and the downtown economy. This is the modern, more low key "company store".
    - celtain 4y ago
      I still don't understand the connection. I assume the term "company store" is being used to invoke the exploitative nature of living in a company town and being paid in scrip. How does "a major local employer wants the local economy to thrive" lead to more exploitation than usual? If anything, I'd expect a thriving local economy to mean that there's more competition for workers, increasing their bargaining power and reducing the probability/severity of worker exploitation.

bradgessler 4y ago

This is what I don't understand about return-to-office mandates for global software/services companies. Even 10 years ago when I'd visit Google HQ, I'd always end up on a conference room on a Google Meet with other Googler's from around the world. What is the point of going to an office to be on video calls all day?

utexaspunk 4y ago
Maintaining the value of commercial real estate?

Pet_Ant 4y ago

> Want to talk collaboration and productivity? Let's see if a company bans zoom for office days I like this idea. It supports the ostensible goal and removes a real annoyance. If I have to come then I sure has hell shouldn't have to be on a call.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

"just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom" this is exactly it; for a few months prior to quitting Google at the end of 2021 I made an effort to go into the office because my morale (and productivity) at home had sunk to desperate levels. I wanted RTO to be the solution for that, but when I got into the office it was just... nobody else there, or at least not reliably so, and needed to VC with everyone anyways. And then that got piled in with commute and parking woes, which got worse ever year... why even bother? I quit, instead. Have a fully remote gig now, and while I miss in-person work - - and the Google $$ I was getting -- I don't miss spending 2 hours of my life driving. I'm sure things have improved some with more people returning to office, but the dynamic is forever changed as a result of COVID. There's a whole generation of hires who started during remote work. I don't like WFH, but I dislike commuting to torture-zone deadsville even more.

stonecharioteer 4y ago

This was why I left my previous company. The CTO would ask me to come to work, he lived next door to the office, and I loved 90 mind away. I'd leave home at 8, be in by 10 only to get a text from him at 11 that he's going to WFH. My team members did the same. Picked it up from him. I tried my best to stay level headed but I had it and quit. Culture is respecting your colleagues' time. He and his employees had no respect for any of it.