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it points to a big shift in society and the economy. software is now a cornerstone of the world economy. modern life runs through the internet. even if you per

it points to a big shift in society and the economy. software is now a cornerstone of the world economy. modern life runs through the internet. even if you personally avoid the internet, you depend on it. but the baby boomer generation, represented by these politicians has not understood it. they know engineers as the guys building houses, bridges, aeroplanes, rockets. but software? it is an invisible world to them. child's play. how hard can it be to build the internet vs. the hoover dam. i don't think this will change soon nor can it be actively changed. we need to wait till this generation simply dies out and gets replaced by the ones who grew up with computers. for a larger part of society in the western hemisphere, that means birthdates in the 1970s. yes, gates, jobs were born earlier, but the majority of their users were born later. they were visionaries, outliers. and the circle will begin again, facebook generation vs. privacy defenders. and who knows whats after that...genetics?

ColdAsIce 15y ago
This is not a generational issue, this same kind of political issue has existed in all times in various forms. It is an issue of power and control, power to control distribution channels and who may produce what and when. Or framed in a better way, before the internet it was about the radio and before that it was about the telegram. The radio was not allowed to be free, pirate stations where setup all over the place and there was a movement for free radio. It was in the spirit of that time to go for the controlled option, laws where setup to prevent independent broadcasters, without the many small radio broadcasters input to the law. The issue is not the same, it is very similar, It is not a generational issue. Baby boomers made the internet, baby boomers where the hippies, they are not clueless about internet or freedom. Intelligent people make you think they are stupid.
- wladimir 15y ago
  Agreed; this is not a generational issue, but a world-view issue. Centrally controlled versus free (as in freedom) and distributed. Centralized versus decentralized. The same kind of "battles" are happening this very moment around: - Food (organic/independent versus bio-industry) - Radio spectrum (free-for-all versus monopolies) - Currency (many distributed ones versus one central controlled world currency) - Identity (pseudonymous/anonymous versus centralized identity) - Equality (equal rights versus centralization of power) - Wealth (equally distributed versus concentrated to a few families) - Software (open source versus closed source) And so on... last decades, the trend seems to be toward centralization in each of them. However, for people to go along with that requires trust in the controlling entity. For example, trust that it is guided by a fair democratic process, or by "enlightened self-interest".
- pwg 15y ago
  > This is not a generational issue, this same kind of political issue has existed in all times in various forms. It is an issue of power and control, power to control distribution channels and who may produce what and when. And note the parallels to Stallman's "The Right to Read" article: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html SOPA/PIPA is just the latest attempt to bring about a world very much like what Stallman described.
deleted 15y ago
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kiba 15y ago
For last couple of centuries or so, each generation grows up with unprecedented change in their lifetime. For example, I enter elementary school, the internet started to take off and browsers were primitive. Nowadays, we can enjoy the convenience of movie streaming, fast browsers, and extraordinary rich video games(Dwarf Fortress, I am looking at you). So it doesn't make sense to me that congressmen are literal dinosaurs. Rather, I think they stop updating their model of the world and refuse to absorb any knowledge for the last couple of decade. In any case, the situation with copyright is not new. If you look at the issue centuries ago, you would realize that we been having this debate for a long time. Today, the internet only make pirating easier than ever and bring the issue of copyright to the forefront of public consciousness. We thought about "old versus new" business model because we lack an understanding of the history of copyright. In reality, it have much more to do about how your model of how to make money.
- saulrh 15y ago
  For last couple of centuries or so, each generation grows up with unprecedented change in their lifetime. I'd argue that this generation's changes aren't just unprecedented, but in an entirely different category. Not just in size, but in speed and extent. The cell phone alone is the most fundamental change in society in human history; suddenly, every person on earth can communicate instantly with almost any other person, and can broadcast an image to almost the entire planet in a matter of hours. And we couldn't do that twenty years ago. We couldn't even do that five years ago.
  - timthorn 15y ago
    > The cell phone alone is the most fundamental change in society in human history What about the railways?
    - iliis 15y ago
      Oh, trains are pretty fundamental and changed a lot. But a device so small it fits into your pocket, let's you communicate in real time with almost everybody, takes pictures and even movies (and sends them around the world), precisely calculates not only time but your location on the whole earth, can recognize speech, songs, books and other stuff, is able to translate fast between common languages, oh, and it let's you access the whole knowledge of our entire species wherever and whenever you want... I mean, I love railways, I really do, but compared to a thing like our cell phones? It would even be possible (altough quite cumbersome), to entirely live just from this thing! (Do some programming/webdesign/consulting/whatever to make money, order food and everything else online and you don't have to do anything else.)
lusr 15y ago
I've often wondered how to explain to non-developers the level of complexity in large software projects. I don't think the new generation will understand it any better than the old generation because, as you say, it's an invisible world. I am currently contracted on a project with 1.5 million lines of code and dependencies on hundreds of services written by a number of different teams. It takes a few weeks just to get new developers productive on the code base. How do you even begin to explain the complexity of this to somebody in a way they can really relate to when they barely understand computers?
- drbawb 15y ago
  This is very true. Explaining systems of reasonably small scale seems hopeless to non-developers sometimes. However I think this is true of a lot of fields... some people just can't grok (and don't need to grok) how an automatic transmission in their car works. I'm particularly inept when it comes to the subtleties of art and music. But a particularly relevant analogy that I use would be that you are working at a library. (That is: a library where you can check out books, not a software library.) Not only do you have to write a good portion of these books, but you also have to read a lot of the books in the library, and at the very least you have to read the table of contents and/or index of most of those books. In addition to this you have to be very good at keeping the library organized, and you have to coordinate with other staff members at the library. Smaller systems are simply a shelf or two of books, larger systems can span several buildings. I like this analogy because most everyone can relate to it, it gives a very real physical sense of size, and I think it pretty adequately describes what a programmer has to hold in their head on a daily basis.
- roel_v 15y ago
  Why would they have to understand? Do you understand the intricaties of an airplane when you fly one?
  - lusr 15y ago
    I'm not suggesting one needs to understand the intricacies. I understand that aircraft are extraordinarily complex, and that's sufficient. I get the impression from non-computer people that software development is the equivalent of typing a Word document, except with mono-spaced fonts and highlighting, and lots of typos leading to bugs.
bad_user 15y ago
This is why it is hard working in companies that doesn't have a software/hardware related business model. To them, sitting in front of a computer all day means you're not working.
bad_user 15y ago
This is why it is hard working in companies that don't have a software/hardware related business model. To them, sitting in front of a computer all day means you're not working. I also have higher expectations from members of congress, people with allegedly good education ... "nerds"? Really?
- slavak 15y ago
  Apparently congressmen haven't passed the age of 12. How is this kind of language acceptable? When they listen to expert opinions from psychiatrists, do they say "let's hear from the head-shrinker"?
- Jgrubb 15y ago
  Actually, that bit brought this entire thing into focus for me. All those congresspeople were simply regurgitating, verbatim, what lobbyists from the MPAA were whispering in their ears right before any of that televised coverage. "these are just a bunch of angry nerds"... I now understand that this is what most, if not all congresspeople do on any issue brought before them. We have to get more involved in the political process, people. Our country is being run into the ground by self-serving, self-obsessed sociopaths without the humility or brainpower to even do the tiniest bit of their own research on the topics that are guiding this country.
scott_s 15y ago
Not all of the politicians in this clip are baby boomers. At least one looked to be in his 40s.
rquantz 15y ago
I'm not sure that this is the reason politicians don't understand the Internet. It's not because they're old, it's because they're fraternity-pledging C-student jocks. you see in the video they keep saying "I'm not a nerd" -- that's because being a nerd is the worst thing they can imagine. They know engineering is hard, but if people see them knowing stuff, they won't be cool anymore.
deleted 15y ago
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swasheck 15y ago
i agree with your sentiment. however, to nuance it a bit more. if, as you say, "software is now a cornerstone of the world economy. modern life runs through the internet. even if you personally avoid the internet, you depend on it." then it seems more likely that this is a power play. if you can control the means/crutch of modern life then you have tremendous financial, social, and political influence.
doktrin 15y ago
Understanding the basic ramifications of SOPA / PIPA requires relatively little technical competence. The opinions expressed by our lawmakers are a reflection of mentality, not age. It was sickening to watch the legislators praise their own ignorance. It's totally cool not to be a subject matter expert in everything - nobody expects them to be. However, it's maddening that they had not already consulted any "nerds". It really begs the question : does this apply to all other aspects of our government? Do we draft legislation on energy, defense and immigration without consulting subject matter experts at the outset?

ColdAsIce 15y ago

This is not a generational issue, this same kind of political issue has existed in all times in various forms. It is an issue of power and control, power to control distribution channels and who may produce what and when. Or framed in a better way, before the internet it was about the radio and before that it was about the telegram. The radio was not allowed to be free, pirate stations where setup all over the place and there was a movement for free radio. It was in the spirit of that time to go for the controlled option, laws where setup to prevent independent broadcasters, without the many small radio broadcasters input to the law. The issue is not the same, it is very similar, It is not a generational issue. Baby boomers made the internet, baby boomers where the hippies, they are not clueless about internet or freedom. Intelligent people make you think they are stupid.

wladimir 15y ago
Agreed; this is not a generational issue, but a world-view issue. Centrally controlled versus free (as in freedom) and distributed. Centralized versus decentralized. The same kind of "battles" are happening this very moment around: - Food (organic/independent versus bio-industry) - Radio spectrum (free-for-all versus monopolies) - Currency (many distributed ones versus one central controlled world currency) - Identity (pseudonymous/anonymous versus centralized identity) - Equality (equal rights versus centralization of power) - Wealth (equally distributed versus concentrated to a few families) - Software (open source versus closed source) And so on... last decades, the trend seems to be toward centralization in each of them. However, for people to go along with that requires trust in the controlling entity. For example, trust that it is guided by a fair democratic process, or by "enlightened self-interest".
pwg 15y ago
> This is not a generational issue, this same kind of political issue has existed in all times in various forms. It is an issue of power and control, power to control distribution channels and who may produce what and when. And note the parallels to Stallman's "The Right to Read" article: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html SOPA/PIPA is just the latest attempt to bring about a world very much like what Stallman described.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

kiba 15y ago

For last couple of centuries or so, each generation grows up with unprecedented change in their lifetime. For example, I enter elementary school, the internet started to take off and browsers were primitive. Nowadays, we can enjoy the convenience of movie streaming, fast browsers, and extraordinary rich video games(Dwarf Fortress, I am looking at you). So it doesn't make sense to me that congressmen are literal dinosaurs. Rather, I think they stop updating their model of the world and refuse to absorb any knowledge for the last couple of decade. In any case, the situation with copyright is not new. If you look at the issue centuries ago, you would realize that we been having this debate for a long time. Today, the internet only make pirating easier than ever and bring the issue of copyright to the forefront of public consciousness. We thought about "old versus new" business model because we lack an understanding of the history of copyright. In reality, it have much more to do about how your model of how to make money.

saulrh 15y ago
For last couple of centuries or so, each generation grows up with unprecedented change in their lifetime. I'd argue that this generation's changes aren't just unprecedented, but in an entirely different category. Not just in size, but in speed and extent. The cell phone alone is the most fundamental change in society in human history; suddenly, every person on earth can communicate instantly with almost any other person, and can broadcast an image to almost the entire planet in a matter of hours. And we couldn't do that twenty years ago. We couldn't even do that five years ago.
- timthorn 15y ago
  > The cell phone alone is the most fundamental change in society in human history What about the railways?
  - iliis 15y ago
    Oh, trains are pretty fundamental and changed a lot. But a device so small it fits into your pocket, let's you communicate in real time with almost everybody, takes pictures and even movies (and sends them around the world), precisely calculates not only time but your location on the whole earth, can recognize speech, songs, books and other stuff, is able to translate fast between common languages, oh, and it let's you access the whole knowledge of our entire species wherever and whenever you want... I mean, I love railways, I really do, but compared to a thing like our cell phones? It would even be possible (altough quite cumbersome), to entirely live just from this thing! (Do some programming/webdesign/consulting/whatever to make money, order food and everything else online and you don't have to do anything else.)

lusr 15y ago

I've often wondered how to explain to non-developers the level of complexity in large software projects. I don't think the new generation will understand it any better than the old generation because, as you say, it's an invisible world. I am currently contracted on a project with 1.5 million lines of code and dependencies on hundreds of services written by a number of different teams. It takes a few weeks just to get new developers productive on the code base. How do you even begin to explain the complexity of this to somebody in a way they can really relate to when they barely understand computers?

drbawb 15y ago
This is very true. Explaining systems of reasonably small scale seems hopeless to non-developers sometimes. However I think this is true of a lot of fields... some people just can't grok (and don't need to grok) how an automatic transmission in their car works. I'm particularly inept when it comes to the subtleties of art and music. But a particularly relevant analogy that I use would be that you are working at a library. (That is: a library where you can check out books, not a software library.) Not only do you have to write a good portion of these books, but you also have to read a lot of the books in the library, and at the very least you have to read the table of contents and/or index of most of those books. In addition to this you have to be very good at keeping the library organized, and you have to coordinate with other staff members at the library. Smaller systems are simply a shelf or two of books, larger systems can span several buildings. I like this analogy because most everyone can relate to it, it gives a very real physical sense of size, and I think it pretty adequately describes what a programmer has to hold in their head on a daily basis.
roel_v 15y ago
Why would they have to understand? Do you understand the intricaties of an airplane when you fly one?
- lusr 15y ago
  I'm not suggesting one needs to understand the intricacies. I understand that aircraft are extraordinarily complex, and that's sufficient. I get the impression from non-computer people that software development is the equivalent of typing a Word document, except with mono-spaced fonts and highlighting, and lots of typos leading to bugs.

bad_user 15y ago

This is why it is hard working in companies that doesn't have a software/hardware related business model. To them, sitting in front of a computer all day means you're not working.

bad_user 15y ago

This is why it is hard working in companies that don't have a software/hardware related business model. To them, sitting in front of a computer all day means you're not working. I also have higher expectations from members of congress, people with allegedly good education ... "nerds"? Really?

slavak 15y ago
Apparently congressmen haven't passed the age of 12. How is this kind of language acceptable? When they listen to expert opinions from psychiatrists, do they say "let's hear from the head-shrinker"?
Jgrubb 15y ago
Actually, that bit brought this entire thing into focus for me. All those congresspeople were simply regurgitating, verbatim, what lobbyists from the MPAA were whispering in their ears right before any of that televised coverage. "these are just a bunch of angry nerds"... I now understand that this is what most, if not all congresspeople do on any issue brought before them. We have to get more involved in the political process, people. Our country is being run into the ground by self-serving, self-obsessed sociopaths without the humility or brainpower to even do the tiniest bit of their own research on the topics that are guiding this country.

scott_s 15y ago

Not all of the politicians in this clip are baby boomers. At least one looked to be in his 40s.

rquantz 15y ago

I'm not sure that this is the reason politicians don't understand the Internet. It's not because they're old, it's because they're fraternity-pledging C-student jocks. you see in the video they keep saying "I'm not a nerd" -- that's because being a nerd is the worst thing they can imagine. They know engineering is hard, but if people see them knowing stuff, they won't be cool anymore.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

swasheck 15y ago

i agree with your sentiment. however, to nuance it a bit more. if, as you say, "software is now a cornerstone of the world economy. modern life runs through the internet. even if you personally avoid the internet, you depend on it." then it seems more likely that this is a power play. if you can control the means/crutch of modern life then you have tremendous financial, social, and political influence.

doktrin 15y ago

Understanding the basic ramifications of SOPA / PIPA requires relatively little technical competence. The opinions expressed by our lawmakers are a reflection of mentality, not age. It was sickening to watch the legislators praise their own ignorance. It's totally cool not to be a subject matter expert in everything - nobody expects them to be. However, it's maddening that they had not already consulted any "nerds". It really begs the question : does this apply to all other aspects of our government? Do we draft legislation on energy, defense and immigration without consulting subject matter experts at the outset?