6 ms·

Asp.net Core updates in .NET 8 Preview 1

115 points by vyrotek 4y ago

easton 4y ago
I wonder if it'll be possible ever to do Native AOT if you rely on Newtonsoft (which is reflection heavy, last I heard). Yes, yes, I know, use System.Text.Json, but I already have all this code relying on Newtonsoft-y things :(
- smackeyacky 4y ago
  It's worth the work heading to System.Text.Json - even if only to make staying up with .NET easier for yourself. It had a bit of a rough start but it seems far more interoperable on weird edge cases than Newtonsoft now, so all the "Newtonsoft-y" things you're doing might evaporate.
  - snarfy 4y ago
    I've had the opposite experience. System.Text.Json adheres extremely close to the RFC and barely handles any edge cases. Newtonsoft will happily serialize invalid json. Not that you want that but if you have a legacy system it's not worth migrating. James Newton-King is a Microsoft employee btw.
  - runevault 4y ago
    Isn't Text.json also faster at this point because it uses all the new span goodness and the like?
    - jcparkyn 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure it's been faster for as long as it's existed.
      - twisteriffic 4y ago
        Turns out it's easy to be fast if you don't have any features.
    - sebazzz 4y ago
      Even better: it has an optional source generator now! So, at compile time, C# can be generated. This can be at two levels: (1) just generate metadata so runtime reflection is not needed, or (2) also generate code that does the serialisation or deserialization itself. Pretty cool!
- bob1029 4y ago
  > but I already have all this code relying on Newtonsoft-y things :( Welcome to the dungeon... Our jailer is polymorphic deserialization. We've got many gigabytes of Newtonsoft JSON in prod with that $type property throughout. Any place I can use System.Text.Json I will, but there are a few legacy usages that absolutely won't work. At this point, I'd like to rescind any expectation/desire for Microsoft to support polymorphic deserialization in their JSON library... It was a super powerful trick to get us to the next step, but it eventually turned into a nightmare for codebase maintenance. Until we have this monster refactored, we won't be able to move most of our types into different namespaces or assemblies.
vyrotek 4y ago
Blazor United looks ambitious but sounds great! The goal feels similar to that of Remix.run and a few other frameworks that are blending SPA/SSR. I do wonder about the scalability of the Blazor Server mode which requires live and "sticky" SignalR connections.
- bottlepalm 4y ago
  I have the same question, will Blazor United SSR still require a persistent SignalR connection? That's kind of a dealbreaker.
  - pca184 4y ago
    In Steve Sanderson's video showing off the prototype (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48G_CEGXZZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48G_CEGXZZM) he mentions around the 2min 15s mark that SSR has no websockets/SignalR or even JS required. From what I could gather, websockets will kick in when an interactive blazor component needs it. And there will be the option start downloading the WASM/DLLs in the background. When WASM is ready your app will switch from websockets to WASM. Hopefully that switch will be 'live', but in the demo it looked like a page refresh was required
  - megaman821 4y ago
    It looks like the first connection will use SignalR and download the WebAssembly in the background. All connections after that will use the cached WebAssembly.
- tomcam 4y ago
  I’m 50% sure Blazor United is a soccer team
- jug 4y ago
  Yeah. I applaud Microsoft for their balls in launching this in its initial incarnation as part of an LTS release!
- Rapzid 4y ago
  Two main things have kept me away from Blazor: * Unclear state management story in Blazor WASM. There is a flux lib for Blazor but.. Ugh, I'm spoiled by MobX. Another project, Cortex.Net, inspired by MobX and uses Fody to make seamless fine-grain change subscriptions looked promising but the project did not gain traction :( * Unclear runtime extensibility: How can I "plug-in" Blazor components that were not present at build time? That's a ASP.NET challenge in general TBH. I REALLY want to want to use it though. That sweet, sweet isomorphism.
joenathanone 4y ago
Microsoft has been on a roll with .NET releases, it's been a 30 minute or so upgrade process for us to go from 5 -> 6 -> 7. Looking forward to the new Blazor model!
avgDev 4y ago
I have been using Blazor Server for a project at work.....Honestly, it is so much better than using .Net MVC/Core with js sprinkled in. I developed stuff in java for android, swift for ios, and now mostly work in c#, SQL, .Net MVC/Core, blazor. Microsoft stack feels pretty good to me. Getting a start up job is a bit difficult, I came across two startups using microsoft stack and only one paid SV money. C#/.Net does have a pretty stable job market but pay is a bit lower.
- layoric 4y ago
  What kind of setup do you have to avoid users noticing the drop of their websocket connection due to a deployment? Blazor Server development experience is very good, but even for an intranet application, it can have a poor user experience by default due to the requirement of a persistent connection.
  - avgDev 4y ago
    It is yet to be launched but it will be used by a small number of users in a intranet. If there are issues I will just convert to webassembly.
  - sebazzz 4y ago
    We've deployed multiple applications without issue over extranet. We release our apps usually outside office hours so a dropped connection or two isn't an issue. Just make it clear when there will be maintenance.
- vyrotek 4y ago
  The trick is to start the company yourself. :) We're 3 years in and full .NET stack. Is your project an internal app or public? I'm cautiously optimistic about Blazor Server but I'm not sure I like the sticky SignalR requirement. The expectation seems to be that the backend server will keep around a lot of state (cough viewstate?) in memory associated to that session. It's a very convenient dev experience for sure, but it seems difficult to scale beyond internal business apps.
  - 4y ago
bob1029 4y ago
I had a conversation on HN w/ a MS engineer last week about the System.Numerics improvements: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34793453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34793453 This stuff is super exciting to me. I've been using the SIMD-accelerated numerics for a side-project. .NET8 is also an LTS version, so we are going to be upgrading to this for our B2B product sometime this year or early next. We had to skip over 7 due to our constraints, so we will be going from 6=>8.

115 points by vyrotek 4y ago

I wonder if it'll be possible ever to do Native AOT if you rely on Newtonsoft (which is reflection heavy, last I heard). Yes, yes, I know, use System.Text.Json, but I already have all this code relying on Newtonsoft-y things :(

smackeyacky 4y ago
It's worth the work heading to System.Text.Json - even if only to make staying up with .NET easier for yourself. It had a bit of a rough start but it seems far more interoperable on weird edge cases than Newtonsoft now, so all the "Newtonsoft-y" things you're doing might evaporate.
- snarfy 4y ago
  I've had the opposite experience. System.Text.Json adheres extremely close to the RFC and barely handles any edge cases. Newtonsoft will happily serialize invalid json. Not that you want that but if you have a legacy system it's not worth migrating. James Newton-King is a Microsoft employee btw.
- runevault 4y ago
  Isn't Text.json also faster at this point because it uses all the new span goodness and the like?
  - jcparkyn 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure it's been faster for as long as it's existed.
    - twisteriffic 4y ago
      Turns out it's easy to be fast if you don't have any features.
  - sebazzz 4y ago
    Even better: it has an optional source generator now! So, at compile time, C# can be generated. This can be at two levels: (1) just generate metadata so runtime reflection is not needed, or (2) also generate code that does the serialisation or deserialization itself. Pretty cool!
bob1029 4y ago
> but I already have all this code relying on Newtonsoft-y things :( Welcome to the dungeon... Our jailer is polymorphic deserialization. We've got many gigabytes of Newtonsoft JSON in prod with that $type property throughout. Any place I can use System.Text.Json I will, but there are a few legacy usages that absolutely won't work. At this point, I'd like to rescind any expectation/desire for Microsoft to support polymorphic deserialization in their JSON library... It was a super powerful trick to get us to the next step, but it eventually turned into a nightmare for codebase maintenance. Until we have this monster refactored, we won't be able to move most of our types into different namespaces or assemblies.

vyrotek 4y ago

Blazor United looks ambitious but sounds great! The goal feels similar to that of Remix.run and a few other frameworks that are blending SPA/SSR. I do wonder about the scalability of the Blazor Server mode which requires live and "sticky" SignalR connections.

bottlepalm 4y ago
I have the same question, will Blazor United SSR still require a persistent SignalR connection? That's kind of a dealbreaker.
- pca184 4y ago
  In Steve Sanderson's video showing off the prototype (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48G_CEGXZZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48G_CEGXZZM) he mentions around the 2min 15s mark that SSR has no websockets/SignalR or even JS required. From what I could gather, websockets will kick in when an interactive blazor component needs it. And there will be the option start downloading the WASM/DLLs in the background. When WASM is ready your app will switch from websockets to WASM. Hopefully that switch will be 'live', but in the demo it looked like a page refresh was required
- megaman821 4y ago
  It looks like the first connection will use SignalR and download the WebAssembly in the background. All connections after that will use the cached WebAssembly.
tomcam 4y ago
I’m 50% sure Blazor United is a soccer team
jug 4y ago
Yeah. I applaud Microsoft for their balls in launching this in its initial incarnation as part of an LTS release!
Rapzid 4y ago
Two main things have kept me away from Blazor: * Unclear state management story in Blazor WASM. There is a flux lib for Blazor but.. Ugh, I'm spoiled by MobX. Another project, Cortex.Net, inspired by MobX and uses Fody to make seamless fine-grain change subscriptions looked promising but the project did not gain traction :( * Unclear runtime extensibility: How can I "plug-in" Blazor components that were not present at build time? That's a ASP.NET challenge in general TBH. I REALLY want to want to use it though. That sweet, sweet isomorphism.

joenathanone 4y ago

Microsoft has been on a roll with .NET releases, it's been a 30 minute or so upgrade process for us to go from 5 -> 6 -> 7. Looking forward to the new Blazor model!

avgDev 4y ago

I have been using Blazor Server for a project at work.....Honestly, it is so much better than using .Net MVC/Core with js sprinkled in. I developed stuff in java for android, swift for ios, and now mostly work in c#, SQL, .Net MVC/Core, blazor. Microsoft stack feels pretty good to me. Getting a start up job is a bit difficult, I came across two startups using microsoft stack and only one paid SV money. C#/.Net does have a pretty stable job market but pay is a bit lower.

layoric 4y ago
What kind of setup do you have to avoid users noticing the drop of their websocket connection due to a deployment? Blazor Server development experience is very good, but even for an intranet application, it can have a poor user experience by default due to the requirement of a persistent connection.
- avgDev 4y ago
  It is yet to be launched but it will be used by a small number of users in a intranet. If there are issues I will just convert to webassembly.
- sebazzz 4y ago
  We've deployed multiple applications without issue over extranet. We release our apps usually outside office hours so a dropped connection or two isn't an issue. Just make it clear when there will be maintenance.
vyrotek 4y ago
The trick is to start the company yourself. :) We're 3 years in and full .NET stack. Is your project an internal app or public? I'm cautiously optimistic about Blazor Server but I'm not sure I like the sticky SignalR requirement. The expectation seems to be that the backend server will keep around a lot of state (cough viewstate?) in memory associated to that session. It's a very convenient dev experience for sure, but it seems difficult to scale beyond internal business apps.
- 4y ago

bob1029 4y ago

I had a conversation on HN w/ a MS engineer last week about the System.Numerics improvements: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34793453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34793453 This stuff is super exciting to me. I've been using the SIMD-accelerated numerics for a side-project. .NET8 is also an LTS version, so we are going to be upgrading to this for our B2B product sometime this year or early next. We had to skip over 7 due to our constraints, so we will be going from 6=>8.