5 ms·

There are thousands of derailments every year. The bigger problem is not the derailment but the fact that they released and burned off the vinyl chloride in or

There are thousands of derailments every year. The bigger problem is not the derailment but the fact that they released and burned off the vinyl chloride in order to expeditiously clear the tracks and get them running again, at great health and environmental cost to the local community and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT)

xadhominemx 4y ago
They burned off the vinyl chloride because the combustion products are relatively benign, it was much safer to remediation personnel to ignite the chemicals in a controlled burn vs having them work around flammable chemicals for weeks, vinyl chloride is quite volatile and acute exposure to high concentrations of vinyl chloride vapor is dangerous, and they wanted to get everyone back in their homes (and yes, get the railroad back up and running) as quickly as safely permissible.
- hammock 4y ago
  >the combustion products are relatively benign Who told you that? Phosgene and dioxins are "relatively benign"? Dioxins might more properly be called forever chemicals, and will contaminate the soil and water of five states for decades. I understand they were trying to avoid a bleve. The solution they chose was not based principally on minimizing citizen harm though
  - mindslight 4y ago
    I haven't seen anything concrete about dioxins coming from the burning of vinyl chloride. From what I've seen, the known dioxin problem is from the burning PVC, which was in bulk cars that were ignited by the derailment (as opposed to deliberately set on fire). FWIW Only one vinyl chloride car was listed as leaking. I would think the alternative was to bring in mobile pumps, new tanker cars, and possibly chillers. And that should probably be made the default standard, rather than defaulting to "controlled" release in an emergent situation.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      Someone else a few days ago linked a paper that measured minuscule amounts of dioxins from burning vinyl chloride. Minuscule as in measurable, but probably not a concern.
  - xadhominemx 4y ago
    Phosgene also has very low environmental persistence. I think the actual amount of dioxin created from combustion of vinyl chloride monomer at atmospheric pressure is very low. In any event, both were dispersed into the atmosphere at concentrations that pose(d) very little danger to people outside of the temporary evacuation zone.
    - hammock 4y ago
      I stand corrected. They did a great job and no one in East Palestine is sick
      - xadhominemx 4y ago
        That is correct. Not a single person in East Palestine was hospitalized.
        panny 4y ago
        I just wanted to follow up here. Yes, people have been hospitalized. Would you care to revise your statement? https://twitter.com/StatusCoup/status/1629530227146731521 https://twitter.com/StatusCoup/status/1629530227146731521
      - mlindner 4y ago
        Correct. There is no one in East Palestine who got sick from this. There's many derailments throughout the country and chemical spills of other sorts have happened many times.
        throwanem 4y ago
        > There is no one in East Palestine who got sick from this. You're saying this a decade or two early, don't you think? Cancer rates are a trailing indicator. I'm not going to try to address the normalization of deviance implicit in the rest of your comment, because what would be the point?
  - creato 4y ago
    Maybe this is out of date, but: > There is also the theoretical possibility of burning vinyl chloride forming dioxins which are known carcinogens. So far, no dioxins have been detected. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-and-nutrition-history/vinyl-chloride-and-ohio-train-derailment https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-and-nutrition-histo...
    - hammock 4y ago
      Have they tested for dioxins? Can you share?
      - doubleg72 4y ago
        Yes, they have been testing and sharing with plenty of news outlets if you care enough to seek it out. The chemicals were burned off and have now dispersed, there is no more source to worry about for anything airborne. It's too bad this is an area of mostly poor, uneducated, right wingers that don't probably know much about chemistry or analytical thinking. Perhaps they could put their energy into ensuring the groundwater does not become contaminated instead of carrying on about things that don't matter, such as Joe Biden and air pollution.
- treeman79 4y ago
  https://youtu.be/L1I6eVP8QQk https://youtu.be/L1I6eVP8QQk Rivers are filled with something that’s heavier than water. Fish are all dying.
  - Blackthorn 4y ago
    Same from a video a friend took yesterday, but he didn't even need to disturb the creek, it just had the sheen on top right there.
  - xadhominemx 4y ago
    Fish are extremely sensitive and die off all the time from levels of contamination that don’t pose much concern for people.
  - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    iron oxidizing bacteria often produce that sheen when disturbed one way to tell is if the sheen, when itself disturbed, stays broken into pieces (bacteria) or rejoins together (oily)
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >it was much safer to remediation personnel to ignite the chemicals in a controlled burn vs having them work around flammable chemicals for weeks It would have taken weeks for a large org like Norfolk Southern to unload the payload to other containers? Seems like an unreasonably long amount of time.
- Eigenstate 4y ago
  > the combustion products are relatively benign If you consider phosgene and HCl to be "benign" based on their half life sure, but this assumes complete combustion. The cloud of visible black smoke emitted shows that clearly didn't happen. Partially combusted vinyl chloride monomer is some horrible mix of carcinogens that will contaminate the area for years.
  - xadhominemx 4y ago
    Nah
schiffern 4y ago
>and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT) My understanding is that contemporaneous weather radar[0] put the plume southeast at the time of the burn. [0] https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/east-palestine-train-derailment-fire-was-visible-on-pittsburgh-radar/amp/ https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/east-palestine-train-derailme...
- hammock 4y ago
  That is good info, thanks for sharing. Here is the model that NOAA created - and which has not been officially released to the public yet: https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1625872327568420864 https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/16258723275684208...
  - schiffern 4y ago
    Thanks, I had not seen that. On the journalism side, the source seems to be extremely alarmist,[0] so I doubt much skepticism was practiced there. On the NOAA side, it would be interesting to see the full set of assumptions behind this model. I would presume the vast majority of emissions would occur during the burn itself (February 6th, afternoon), but this model seems to assume a significant (undiminished?) outflow at midnight on February 8th. "Garbage in, garbage out." [0] https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1625875297483763712 https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/16258752974837637...
naasking 4y ago
> There are thousands of derailments every year. The bigger problem is not the derailment [...] I think that's a problem worth discussing as well. Obama passed legislation to upgrade trains braking systems to make them a lot safer, which was then weakened by lobbying, which was then repealed by Trump, then the rail companies spent billions in stock buybacks and tried to tighten the screws on their labour force even further for cost-cutting reasons. There are a lot of pathological behaviours that have gone into "thousands of derailments per year" that are worth discussing, and I'd say those are a lot more important than just this one derailment.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The way to put the screws to the rail companies isn’t to regulate better brakes - just have the NTSB have a policy of shutting down any line that has a derailment for months or longer. The companies will solve it themselves.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    Fine them millions per derailment. Increasing with each one.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      This can work but they can fight fines, or eat it as cost of business. Much harder to argue against a safety-shutdown.
  - clcaev 4y ago
    The rail companies are "too big to fail" since they are core national logistics.
    - katbyte 4y ago
      Then maybe they shouldn’t be private companies that cut corners for profit putting both people and that logistical operation at risk.
    - 4y ago
SkyPuncher 4y ago
> fact that they released and burned off the vinyl chloride in order to expeditiously clear the tracks and get them running again I was under the impression that there was risk of a Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion which would have been even more catastrophic than the "controlled" release and burn off.

xadhominemx 4y ago

They burned off the vinyl chloride because the combustion products are relatively benign, it was much safer to remediation personnel to ignite the chemicals in a controlled burn vs having them work around flammable chemicals for weeks, vinyl chloride is quite volatile and acute exposure to high concentrations of vinyl chloride vapor is dangerous, and they wanted to get everyone back in their homes (and yes, get the railroad back up and running) as quickly as safely permissible.

hammock 4y ago
>the combustion products are relatively benign Who told you that? Phosgene and dioxins are "relatively benign"? Dioxins might more properly be called forever chemicals, and will contaminate the soil and water of five states for decades. I understand they were trying to avoid a bleve. The solution they chose was not based principally on minimizing citizen harm though
- mindslight 4y ago
  I haven't seen anything concrete about dioxins coming from the burning of vinyl chloride. From what I've seen, the known dioxin problem is from the burning PVC, which was in bulk cars that were ignited by the derailment (as opposed to deliberately set on fire). FWIW Only one vinyl chloride car was listed as leaking. I would think the alternative was to bring in mobile pumps, new tanker cars, and possibly chillers. And that should probably be made the default standard, rather than defaulting to "controlled" release in an emergent situation.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Someone else a few days ago linked a paper that measured minuscule amounts of dioxins from burning vinyl chloride. Minuscule as in measurable, but probably not a concern.
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  Phosgene also has very low environmental persistence. I think the actual amount of dioxin created from combustion of vinyl chloride monomer at atmospheric pressure is very low. In any event, both were dispersed into the atmosphere at concentrations that pose(d) very little danger to people outside of the temporary evacuation zone.
  - hammock 4y ago
    I stand corrected. They did a great job and no one in East Palestine is sick
    - xadhominemx 4y ago
      That is correct. Not a single person in East Palestine was hospitalized.
      - panny 4y ago
        I just wanted to follow up here. Yes, people have been hospitalized. Would you care to revise your statement? https://twitter.com/StatusCoup/status/1629530227146731521 https://twitter.com/StatusCoup/status/1629530227146731521
    - mlindner 4y ago
      Correct. There is no one in East Palestine who got sick from this. There's many derailments throughout the country and chemical spills of other sorts have happened many times.
      - throwanem 4y ago
        > There is no one in East Palestine who got sick from this. You're saying this a decade or two early, don't you think? Cancer rates are a trailing indicator. I'm not going to try to address the normalization of deviance implicit in the rest of your comment, because what would be the point?
- creato 4y ago
  Maybe this is out of date, but: > There is also the theoretical possibility of burning vinyl chloride forming dioxins which are known carcinogens. So far, no dioxins have been detected. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-and-nutrition-history/vinyl-chloride-and-ohio-train-derailment https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-and-nutrition-histo...
  - hammock 4y ago
    Have they tested for dioxins? Can you share?
    - doubleg72 4y ago
      Yes, they have been testing and sharing with plenty of news outlets if you care enough to seek it out. The chemicals were burned off and have now dispersed, there is no more source to worry about for anything airborne. It's too bad this is an area of mostly poor, uneducated, right wingers that don't probably know much about chemistry or analytical thinking. Perhaps they could put their energy into ensuring the groundwater does not become contaminated instead of carrying on about things that don't matter, such as Joe Biden and air pollution.
treeman79 4y ago
https://youtu.be/L1I6eVP8QQk https://youtu.be/L1I6eVP8QQk Rivers are filled with something that’s heavier than water. Fish are all dying.
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  Same from a video a friend took yesterday, but he didn't even need to disturb the creek, it just had the sheen on top right there.
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  Fish are extremely sensitive and die off all the time from levels of contamination that don’t pose much concern for people.
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  iron oxidizing bacteria often produce that sheen when disturbed one way to tell is if the sheen, when itself disturbed, stays broken into pieces (bacteria) or rejoins together (oily)
ashwagary 4y ago
>it was much safer to remediation personnel to ignite the chemicals in a controlled burn vs having them work around flammable chemicals for weeks It would have taken weeks for a large org like Norfolk Southern to unload the payload to other containers? Seems like an unreasonably long amount of time.
Eigenstate 4y ago
> the combustion products are relatively benign If you consider phosgene and HCl to be "benign" based on their half life sure, but this assumes complete combustion. The cloud of visible black smoke emitted shows that clearly didn't happen. Partially combusted vinyl chloride monomer is some horrible mix of carcinogens that will contaminate the area for years.
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  Nah

schiffern 4y ago

>and even several states in the windshed to the northeast (PA, NY, VT) My understanding is that contemporaneous weather radar[0] put the plume southeast at the time of the burn. [0] https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/east-palestine-train-derailment-fire-was-visible-on-pittsburgh-radar/amp/ https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/east-palestine-train-derailme...

hammock 4y ago
That is good info, thanks for sharing. Here is the model that NOAA created - and which has not been officially released to the public yet: https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1625872327568420864 https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/16258723275684208...
- schiffern 4y ago
  Thanks, I had not seen that. On the journalism side, the source seems to be extremely alarmist,[0] so I doubt much skepticism was practiced there. On the NOAA side, it would be interesting to see the full set of assumptions behind this model. I would presume the vast majority of emissions would occur during the burn itself (February 6th, afternoon), but this model seems to assume a significant (undiminished?) outflow at midnight on February 8th. "Garbage in, garbage out." [0] https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1625875297483763712 https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/16258752974837637...

naasking 4y ago

> There are thousands of derailments every year. The bigger problem is not the derailment [...] I think that's a problem worth discussing as well. Obama passed legislation to upgrade trains braking systems to make them a lot safer, which was then weakened by lobbying, which was then repealed by Trump, then the rail companies spent billions in stock buybacks and tried to tighten the screws on their labour force even further for cost-cutting reasons. There are a lot of pathological behaviours that have gone into "thousands of derailments per year" that are worth discussing, and I'd say those are a lot more important than just this one derailment.

bombcar 4y ago
The way to put the screws to the rail companies isn’t to regulate better brakes - just have the NTSB have a policy of shutting down any line that has a derailment for months or longer. The companies will solve it themselves.
- katbyte 4y ago
  Fine them millions per derailment. Increasing with each one.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    This can work but they can fight fines, or eat it as cost of business. Much harder to argue against a safety-shutdown.
- clcaev 4y ago
  The rail companies are "too big to fail" since they are core national logistics.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    Then maybe they shouldn’t be private companies that cut corners for profit putting both people and that logistical operation at risk.
  - 4y ago

SkyPuncher 4y ago

> fact that they released and burned off the vinyl chloride in order to expeditiously clear the tracks and get them running again I was under the impression that there was risk of a Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion which would have been even more catastrophic than the "controlled" release and burn off.