4 ms·

Yup. One of the foundational studies supporting SSRIs involved a model of "depression" which was regularly delivering electric shocks to mice. So SSRIs provid

Yup. One of the foundational studies supporting SSRIs involved a model of "depression" which was regularly delivering electric shocks to mice. So SSRIs provide statistically significant improvements for mice being mildly tortured. To be fair, this is probably a good model of what lots of people on SSRIs actually have as a life experience. "Chemical imbalance", my ass.

rozab 4y ago
As far as I can tell, the standard measure of depression in rodents is something called the forced swim test. It's what it sounds like. This appears to be the primary way all antidepressants are assessed. I'm no expert, but this measure would seem to have innumerable potential confounds. I guess it was chosen because it's fast to carry out.
astrange 4y ago
Hopefully no professional ever thought depression was caused by "chemical imbalances". That's a pop science myth, although one people strongly believe for some reason. The correct answer is we don't know why SSRIs work, which isn't unusual for medicine.
- nsxwolf 4y ago
  The name "Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor" vaguely sounds like it has something to do with rebalancing chemicals.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    SSRIs are exactly what they say. They inhibit the function of this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_transporter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_transporter Now what happens after you block the serotonin transporter and how that leads to relieved symptoms of depression and anxiety, that's much more controversial. There is a strong association between social dominance and serotonin, and "low serotonin levels" are associated with being an underdog. It's a reasonable assumption that SSRIs attenuate stress-related brain damage caused by being an underdog. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33410-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33410-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-002-1049-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-002-1049-7 You don't hear that one very much because if you took it seriously it would mean you shouldn't take a pill but rather you should join a revolutionary party.
    - astrange 4y ago
      Yellow card for insufficient dialectics. Joining a revolutionary party makes you more of an underdog! Obviously there's no way to just become someone who can feel successful, but having social hobbies is a more normal way to get there. But if you're depressed you have a harder time doing that. It's probably not what SSRIs are doing though. It might be something BDNF related, or brain inflammation (everything's inflammation…). https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressants-work-last https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressant...
- creata 4y ago
  > The idea was also endorsed by official institutions such as the American Psychiatric Association, which still tells the public that “differences in certain chemicals in the brain may contribute to symptoms of depression”. [1] It's not just a pop science myth, and there are, somehow, still many professionals who think it is or could be a good explanation. [1]: https://theconversation.com/depression-is-probably-not-caused-by-a-chemical-imbalance-in-the-brain-new-study-186672 https://theconversation.com/depression-is-probably-not-cause...
- catskul2 4y ago
  They have and do regularly describe it in those terms to patients.

rozab 4y ago

As far as I can tell, the standard measure of depression in rodents is something called the forced swim test. It's what it sounds like. This appears to be the primary way all antidepressants are assessed. I'm no expert, but this measure would seem to have innumerable potential confounds. I guess it was chosen because it's fast to carry out.

astrange 4y ago

Hopefully no professional ever thought depression was caused by "chemical imbalances". That's a pop science myth, although one people strongly believe for some reason. The correct answer is we don't know why SSRIs work, which isn't unusual for medicine.

nsxwolf 4y ago
The name "Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor" vaguely sounds like it has something to do with rebalancing chemicals.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  SSRIs are exactly what they say. They inhibit the function of this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_transporter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_transporter Now what happens after you block the serotonin transporter and how that leads to relieved symptoms of depression and anxiety, that's much more controversial. There is a strong association between social dominance and serotonin, and "low serotonin levels" are associated with being an underdog. It's a reasonable assumption that SSRIs attenuate stress-related brain damage caused by being an underdog. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33410-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33410-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-002-1049-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-002-1049-7 You don't hear that one very much because if you took it seriously it would mean you shouldn't take a pill but rather you should join a revolutionary party.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Yellow card for insufficient dialectics. Joining a revolutionary party makes you more of an underdog! Obviously there's no way to just become someone who can feel successful, but having social hobbies is a more normal way to get there. But if you're depressed you have a harder time doing that. It's probably not what SSRIs are doing though. It might be something BDNF related, or brain inflammation (everything's inflammation…). https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressants-work-last https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressant...
creata 4y ago
> The idea was also endorsed by official institutions such as the American Psychiatric Association, which still tells the public that “differences in certain chemicals in the brain may contribute to symptoms of depression”. [1] It's not just a pop science myth, and there are, somehow, still many professionals who think it is or could be a good explanation. [1]: https://theconversation.com/depression-is-probably-not-caused-by-a-chemical-imbalance-in-the-brain-new-study-186672 https://theconversation.com/depression-is-probably-not-cause...
catskul2 4y ago
They have and do regularly describe it in those terms to patients.