2 ms·

And a fair number of old Adobe, Apple, and BeOS technical docs lack embedded fonts for some reason.

by mananaysiempre 4y ago

RobotToaster 4y ago
Back then it could have been due to file size?
- mananaysiempre 4y ago
  Coupled with the lack of builtin compression in contemporary PDF versions (and a strange but widespread aversion to gzipped pdf), perhaps, but then there shouldn’t be anything special about those particular companies. Maybe there isn’t, though, maybe that’s just where I come across mid-to-late-90s PDFs.
crazygringo 4y ago
Can you send a link to an example? Which fonts were they using that weren't embedded? Never in my life have I come across a PDF intended for public distribution missing an embedded font. (The sole exception being the PDF standard fonts like Times New Roman that are never embedded.)
- mananaysiempre 4y ago
  I remember an Adobe presentation[1] tried to walk back the "14 standard fonts" thing as being an Acrobat "convenience" feature rather than a PDF standard feature, probably because it doesn't look good to attempt to standardize a (format unimplementable without a) set of fonts you're unwilling or unable to let people freely redistribute. (But then that presentation also promised the nascent ISO PDF standard would always stay accessible free of charge, and we know how that turned out.) Certainly PDF/A does not permit you to omit them, though that's only one specific kind of PDF. In any case, sure, here you go: - The Be Book[2] for DR8 uses but does not embed AvantGarde-* fonts. - Inside Macintosh: Interapplication Communication[3] uses but does not embed Palatino-* fonts (for this one I could be convinced it's because the uploader merged the original per-chapter PDFs[4] incorrectly, though). - The Mac OS 8 Human Interface Guidelines[5] also have the Palatino problem (and look legit, even though other Apple HIGs from that era do embed their fonts). - Even the bloody spec[6] for PDF 1.3 uses and does not embed Caecilia-Heavy and MyriadMM_565_600_, whatever those are. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poc9PVmFzpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poc9PVmFzpc [2] http://bebits.irixnet.org/be/docs/DR8/BeBook/acrobat/05_MediaKit.pdf http://bebits.irixnet.org/be/docs/DR8/BeBook/acrobat/05_Medi... and others in that directory (1996 metadata) [3] https://vintageapple.org/inside_r/pdf/Interapplication_Comm_1993.pdf https://vintageapple.org/inside_r/pdf/Interapplication_Comm_... (1993 copyright, 2014 metadata) [4] https://thrysoee.dk/InsideMacintoshInterapplicationCommunication/ https://thrysoee.dk/InsideMacintoshInterapplicationCommunica... [5] http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGOS8_Guidelines.pdf http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGOS8_Guidelines.pd... (1997 metadata) [6] https://web.archive.org/web/20101214132912/http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/pdf/PDFReference13.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20101214132912/http://partners.a... (2000 metadata)
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    Thanks! I took a look at a few of these, and some of them are maybe just strange bugs. E.g. the Adobe PDF spec embeds almost everything including most versions of Myriad, just not those two you mention. Similarly the Apple Guidelines embed Palatino Roman and Standard (as TrueType), just not Bold (as Type 1). The Media Kit one does just not embed anything though (no Avant Garde), so that's clearly intentional. It does make me wonder if technical documentation intended for a specific platform would sometimes try to save space by not embedding fonts standard not to PDF but to the platform. E.g. Avant Garde has shipped with Macs for a very long time. Still, what a terrible idea. But fascinating to see documents with these problems in the wild, first time I've ever come across it. Thanks for taking the time!
    - jasomill 4y ago
      As another data point, I've run into a variety of old DEC VMS documentation prominently featuring non-embedded New Century Schoolbook, e.g., http://www.vaxhaven.com/images/a/a7/AA-PS6KA-TE.pdf http://www.vaxhaven.com/images/a/a7/AA-PS6KA-TE.pdf It's probably not a coincidence that New Century Schoolbook was one of the fonts included with all PostScript Level 2 printers, but not included with older PostScript printers or Acrobat. Note that the documentation in question was originally distributed as PostScript .ps files, not PDF, and it indeed makes no sense to embed New Century Schoolbook in a Level 2 or higher PostScript file, for both practical and likely legal reasons.
  - jasomill 4y ago
    Per a handy diagram in MacWorld's review[1] of the original release of Myriad as one of the first multiple-master[2] Type 1 fonts, "MyriadMM_565_600_" is a semibold, regular-width instance. Myriad Pro Semibold and Myriad Variable Concept Semibold should both be very close matches. Myriad Variable Concept is bundled with the current version of Adobe Illustrator (and possibly with other Adobe apps not currently installed on my system); Myriad Pro was bundled with most (all?) versions of the pre-cloud Adobe Creative Suite, and has the benefit of being a traditional, non-variable OpenType font that should work pretty much everywhere. This suggests an interesting question: are tools available to faithfully convert multiple-master Type 1 fonts to variable OpenType format? "Caecilia-Heavy" is PMN Caecilia 85 Heavy; Caecilia LT Std 85 Heavy, a currently-available OpenType font, is presumably a close match. Both Myriad Pro and Caecilia LT Std 85 Heavy are included in Adobe Font Folio 11 and, um, maybe available for activation via Creative Cloud, but this is not immediately clear from Adobe's Web site, and I'm having problems launching the damn CC app to check. Of the many Adobe products I happened to have licensed before discontinuation in favor of a subscription-only replacement, Font Folio is probably my favorite. And, unlike older Adobe applications, it's still 100% compatible with every modern OS, and likely to remain so in perpetuity. Or at least until OpenType is deprecated in favor of some dystopian online-only replacement… [1] https://archive.org/details/MacWorld_9207_July_1992/page/n197/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/MacWorld_9207_July_1992/page/n19... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_master_fonts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_master_fonts

And a fair number of old Adobe, Apple, and BeOS technical docs lack embedded fonts for some reason.

RobotToaster 4y ago

Back then it could have been due to file size?

mananaysiempre 4y ago
Coupled with the lack of builtin compression in contemporary PDF versions (and a strange but widespread aversion to gzipped pdf), perhaps, but then there shouldn’t be anything special about those particular companies. Maybe there isn’t, though, maybe that’s just where I come across mid-to-late-90s PDFs.

crazygringo 4y ago

Can you send a link to an example? Which fonts were they using that weren't embedded? Never in my life have I come across a PDF intended for public distribution missing an embedded font. (The sole exception being the PDF standard fonts like Times New Roman that are never embedded.)

mananaysiempre 4y ago
I remember an Adobe presentation[1] tried to walk back the "14 standard fonts" thing as being an Acrobat "convenience" feature rather than a PDF standard feature, probably because it doesn't look good to attempt to standardize a (format unimplementable without a) set of fonts you're unwilling or unable to let people freely redistribute. (But then that presentation also promised the nascent ISO PDF standard would always stay accessible free of charge, and we know how that turned out.) Certainly PDF/A does not permit you to omit them, though that's only one specific kind of PDF. In any case, sure, here you go: - The Be Book[2] for DR8 uses but does not embed AvantGarde-* fonts. - Inside Macintosh: Interapplication Communication[3] uses but does not embed Palatino-* fonts (for this one I could be convinced it's because the uploader merged the original per-chapter PDFs[4] incorrectly, though). - The Mac OS 8 Human Interface Guidelines[5] also have the Palatino problem (and look legit, even though other Apple HIGs from that era do embed their fonts). - Even the bloody spec[6] for PDF 1.3 uses and does not embed Caecilia-Heavy and MyriadMM_565_600_, whatever those are. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poc9PVmFzpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poc9PVmFzpc [2] http://bebits.irixnet.org/be/docs/DR8/BeBook/acrobat/05_MediaKit.pdf http://bebits.irixnet.org/be/docs/DR8/BeBook/acrobat/05_Medi... and others in that directory (1996 metadata) [3] https://vintageapple.org/inside_r/pdf/Interapplication_Comm_1993.pdf https://vintageapple.org/inside_r/pdf/Interapplication_Comm_... (1993 copyright, 2014 metadata) [4] https://thrysoee.dk/InsideMacintoshInterapplicationCommunication/ https://thrysoee.dk/InsideMacintoshInterapplicationCommunica... [5] http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGOS8_Guidelines.pdf http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGOS8_Guidelines.pd... (1997 metadata) [6] https://web.archive.org/web/20101214132912/http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/pdf/PDFReference13.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20101214132912/http://partners.a... (2000 metadata)
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Thanks! I took a look at a few of these, and some of them are maybe just strange bugs. E.g. the Adobe PDF spec embeds almost everything including most versions of Myriad, just not those two you mention. Similarly the Apple Guidelines embed Palatino Roman and Standard (as TrueType), just not Bold (as Type 1). The Media Kit one does just not embed anything though (no Avant Garde), so that's clearly intentional. It does make me wonder if technical documentation intended for a specific platform would sometimes try to save space by not embedding fonts standard not to PDF but to the platform. E.g. Avant Garde has shipped with Macs for a very long time. Still, what a terrible idea. But fascinating to see documents with these problems in the wild, first time I've ever come across it. Thanks for taking the time!
  - jasomill 4y ago
    As another data point, I've run into a variety of old DEC VMS documentation prominently featuring non-embedded New Century Schoolbook, e.g., http://www.vaxhaven.com/images/a/a7/AA-PS6KA-TE.pdf http://www.vaxhaven.com/images/a/a7/AA-PS6KA-TE.pdf It's probably not a coincidence that New Century Schoolbook was one of the fonts included with all PostScript Level 2 printers, but not included with older PostScript printers or Acrobat. Note that the documentation in question was originally distributed as PostScript .ps files, not PDF, and it indeed makes no sense to embed New Century Schoolbook in a Level 2 or higher PostScript file, for both practical and likely legal reasons.
- jasomill 4y ago
  Per a handy diagram in MacWorld's review[1] of the original release of Myriad as one of the first multiple-master[2] Type 1 fonts, "MyriadMM_565_600_" is a semibold, regular-width instance. Myriad Pro Semibold and Myriad Variable Concept Semibold should both be very close matches. Myriad Variable Concept is bundled with the current version of Adobe Illustrator (and possibly with other Adobe apps not currently installed on my system); Myriad Pro was bundled with most (all?) versions of the pre-cloud Adobe Creative Suite, and has the benefit of being a traditional, non-variable OpenType font that should work pretty much everywhere. This suggests an interesting question: are tools available to faithfully convert multiple-master Type 1 fonts to variable OpenType format? "Caecilia-Heavy" is PMN Caecilia 85 Heavy; Caecilia LT Std 85 Heavy, a currently-available OpenType font, is presumably a close match. Both Myriad Pro and Caecilia LT Std 85 Heavy are included in Adobe Font Folio 11 and, um, maybe available for activation via Creative Cloud, but this is not immediately clear from Adobe's Web site, and I'm having problems launching the damn CC app to check. Of the many Adobe products I happened to have licensed before discontinuation in favor of a subscription-only replacement, Font Folio is probably my favorite. And, unlike older Adobe applications, it's still 100% compatible with every modern OS, and likely to remain so in perpetuity. Or at least until OpenType is deprecated in favor of some dystopian online-only replacement… [1] https://archive.org/details/MacWorld_9207_July_1992/page/n197/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/MacWorld_9207_July_1992/page/n19... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_master_fonts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_master_fonts