5 ms·

Is the trackpoint really that important when you have a trackpad which doesn't suck with associated drivers and software which doesn't suck? I've never been usi

by mort96 4y ago

Is the trackpoint really that important when you have a trackpad which doesn't suck with associated drivers and software which doesn't suck? I've never been using a Mac trackpad and felt the need for something trackpoint-like. I understand the desire for a trackpoint on laptops with non-Apple trackpads though.

rkta 4y ago
Yes, because I have to move my hand off the keyboard to use the trackpad.
- Reason077 4y ago
  Fair. But don't you move your hand off the keyboard to use a mouse when using a desktop PC? Or do you have a trackpoint on your keyboard there too?
  - rkta 4y ago
    I avoid keyboards without trackpoint. And for the rare case where I have to do something which requires a lot of mouse pointer motion (e.g. CAD modeling or reading schematics) I prefer a real mouse over a trackpad.
goosedragons 4y ago
Yes? You don't need to move from the keyboard at all, you get physical buttons too. Your wrist is never misinterpreted as a mouse movement either. It's just better unless your workflow heavily involves the use of 3+ finger gestures. Which I don't personally care about but seems like a necessity to not go insane on macOS.
- Reason077 4y ago
  > "Your wrist is never misinterpreted as a mouse movement either." This just doesn't happen on Mac trackpads: they have pretty sophisticated and effective palm rejection.
  - phist_mcgee 4y ago
    Just spent about 30 seconds there testing this on my m2. Couldn't convince it to move the cursor with anything below the knuckles.
  - pxx 4y ago
    That's definitely not the case in my experience. Has this improved in the recent past?
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    Nope. It definitely happened to me on my MBP because of the giant trackpad.
  - nullwarp 4y ago
    As someone with slightly larger than average hands - Yes it does, it happens all the time on both of mine.
  - jq-r 4y ago
    Not sure if that's the case anymore. Had various Apple laptops in the last 15 years and palm rejection worked great. Not so with the 16in M1 MBP. It has trouble with it especially when I wear sleeves. The trackpad might be just a bit too large.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I think it depends on your style. I have problems with mine, because I typically type with only my fingertips touching anything. So if my palm hits the touchpad, it registers as a mouse movement. The only solution I've found that works pretty well for me is to rest my palms on the touchpad when I type, which seems to give it a better clue. But this isn't how I type on any other keyboard, so I keep forgetting.
  - macintux 4y ago
    I have small hands and still have trouble with this, to the point where I almost always have an external keyboard/trackpad with me.
  - Vrondi 4y ago
- mbreese 4y ago
  You still need to shift your hand position. One of you hands leaves the home row, or at least that's how I always used the track point (and I started using them in the 90s). Is it as much of a shift as a trackpad? No, of course not. Is it a panacea of speed because your hands don't have to move as much? Not at all. Keyboard shortcuts are still much faster. You like them or you don't. There's no real need to explain about it anymore than that. Honestly, on my Thinkpads, I used the trackpad just as much as the point. Maybe I'm just not very good at it, but it takes some skill to use the point. The physical click buttons are nice though. I also don't use 3 finger shortcuts on my Mac either, so maybe I'm just crazy.
qball 4y ago
>Is the trackpoint really that important Yes. The arguments for it are the exact same ones Vim evangelists make (ergonomics, speed), but having the TrackPoint there applies those advantages to every other program on the system as opposed to just the one.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  I’ve had thinkpads for years, first a T420 and now an X1C (and I use vim a lot) and I can’t seem to integrate the track point into my workflow. Either it’s too fast and it overshoots, or it’s too slow and it distracts from what you’re trying to actually do. How long did it take you to become proficient with it to the point you prefer it over a mouse / trackpad?
  - xeonmc 4y ago
    About 5-minutes into first trying a ThinkPad ever The trick is to use the stick as a Force sensor, instead of treating it like a capacitive Position stick on console controllers. In other words, you use your skin to "pull" the stick transversely so that the shearing force maximizes the feedback to your fingertip's cutaneous nerves. The common mistake for those who gave up after 5 seconds of trying is attempting to "push" against the stick which is very difficult to do because there is barely any height to the nub, and in order to reverse directions you'd then need to shift your fingertip to get leverage on the opposite side of the dome. When you instead use the shearing technique, it enables considerable finesse over not just the magnitude but also rapid modulation of the direction you are applying it in, effectively using the skin itself as both a sensor and a transducer. Also remember to turn off the operating system's mouse acceleration, and turn up the driver's pressure sensitivity to max.
    - ghostpepper 4y ago
      Thanks for the detailed explanation - you've inspired me to give it another shot.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Yeah, I tried repeatedly with an IBM laptop years ago to get used to the nub, and couldn't get accurate with it without dropping to like 1/20th my mouse-using speed. Even the shit-tastic trackpad was way, way better. But of course I just did what a lot of PC laptop owners do and ended up carting a mouse everywhere (I'd have to have the power brick anyway, and once you're in "I'll need a bag" territory you may as well toss the mouse in)
Vrondi 4y ago
Yes, and depending on preference, it's better. With a properly working trackpoint, you barely need to move your hand or fingers at all. Complete screen navigation from slight finger pressure. No swipes, no wrist movement, no carpal tunnel, no RTS. The single best control system ever invented, once you learn to stop trying to use it like a mouse or trackpad. Trackpoint combined with touchscreen is the best.

by mort96 4y ago

rkta 4y ago

Yes, because I have to move my hand off the keyboard to use the trackpad.

Reason077 4y ago
Fair. But don't you move your hand off the keyboard to use a mouse when using a desktop PC? Or do you have a trackpoint on your keyboard there too?
- rkta 4y ago
  I avoid keyboards without trackpoint. And for the rare case where I have to do something which requires a lot of mouse pointer motion (e.g. CAD modeling or reading schematics) I prefer a real mouse over a trackpad.

goosedragons 4y ago

Yes? You don't need to move from the keyboard at all, you get physical buttons too. Your wrist is never misinterpreted as a mouse movement either. It's just better unless your workflow heavily involves the use of 3+ finger gestures. Which I don't personally care about but seems like a necessity to not go insane on macOS.

Reason077 4y ago
> "Your wrist is never misinterpreted as a mouse movement either." This just doesn't happen on Mac trackpads: they have pretty sophisticated and effective palm rejection.
- phist_mcgee 4y ago
  Just spent about 30 seconds there testing this on my m2. Couldn't convince it to move the cursor with anything below the knuckles.
- pxx 4y ago
  That's definitely not the case in my experience. Has this improved in the recent past?
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Nope. It definitely happened to me on my MBP because of the giant trackpad.
- nullwarp 4y ago
  As someone with slightly larger than average hands - Yes it does, it happens all the time on both of mine.
- jq-r 4y ago
  Not sure if that's the case anymore. Had various Apple laptops in the last 15 years and palm rejection worked great. Not so with the 16in M1 MBP. It has trouble with it especially when I wear sleeves. The trackpad might be just a bit too large.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I think it depends on your style. I have problems with mine, because I typically type with only my fingertips touching anything. So if my palm hits the touchpad, it registers as a mouse movement. The only solution I've found that works pretty well for me is to rest my palms on the touchpad when I type, which seems to give it a better clue. But this isn't how I type on any other keyboard, so I keep forgetting.
- macintux 4y ago
  I have small hands and still have trouble with this, to the point where I almost always have an external keyboard/trackpad with me.
- Vrondi 4y ago
mbreese 4y ago
You still need to shift your hand position. One of you hands leaves the home row, or at least that's how I always used the track point (and I started using them in the 90s). Is it as much of a shift as a trackpad? No, of course not. Is it a panacea of speed because your hands don't have to move as much? Not at all. Keyboard shortcuts are still much faster. You like them or you don't. There's no real need to explain about it anymore than that. Honestly, on my Thinkpads, I used the trackpad just as much as the point. Maybe I'm just not very good at it, but it takes some skill to use the point. The physical click buttons are nice though. I also don't use 3 finger shortcuts on my Mac either, so maybe I'm just crazy.

qball 4y ago

>Is the trackpoint really that important Yes. The arguments for it are the exact same ones Vim evangelists make (ergonomics, speed), but having the TrackPoint there applies those advantages to every other program on the system as opposed to just the one.

ghostpepper 4y ago
I’ve had thinkpads for years, first a T420 and now an X1C (and I use vim a lot) and I can’t seem to integrate the track point into my workflow. Either it’s too fast and it overshoots, or it’s too slow and it distracts from what you’re trying to actually do. How long did it take you to become proficient with it to the point you prefer it over a mouse / trackpad?
- xeonmc 4y ago
  About 5-minutes into first trying a ThinkPad ever The trick is to use the stick as a Force sensor, instead of treating it like a capacitive Position stick on console controllers. In other words, you use your skin to "pull" the stick transversely so that the shearing force maximizes the feedback to your fingertip's cutaneous nerves. The common mistake for those who gave up after 5 seconds of trying is attempting to "push" against the stick which is very difficult to do because there is barely any height to the nub, and in order to reverse directions you'd then need to shift your fingertip to get leverage on the opposite side of the dome. When you instead use the shearing technique, it enables considerable finesse over not just the magnitude but also rapid modulation of the direction you are applying it in, effectively using the skin itself as both a sensor and a transducer. Also remember to turn off the operating system's mouse acceleration, and turn up the driver's pressure sensitivity to max.
  - ghostpepper 4y ago
    Thanks for the detailed explanation - you've inspired me to give it another shot.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Yeah, I tried repeatedly with an IBM laptop years ago to get used to the nub, and couldn't get accurate with it without dropping to like 1/20th my mouse-using speed. Even the shit-tastic trackpad was way, way better. But of course I just did what a lot of PC laptop owners do and ended up carting a mouse everywhere (I'd have to have the power brick anyway, and once you're in "I'll need a bag" territory you may as well toss the mouse in)

Vrondi 4y ago

Yes, and depending on preference, it's better. With a properly working trackpoint, you barely need to move your hand or fingers at all. Complete screen navigation from slight finger pressure. No swipes, no wrist movement, no carpal tunnel, no RTS. The single best control system ever invented, once you learn to stop trying to use it like a mouse or trackpad. Trackpoint combined with touchscreen is the best.