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> PS: Battery replacement is a bless. Yes, built-in batteries allow for more sturdy frames but it is bad in long term. It would be enough the provide replacemen

> PS: Battery replacement is a bless. Yes, built-in batteries allow for more sturdy frames but it is bad in long term. It would be enough the provide replacement batteries with a low-weight cage and screws instead of glue. I agree with this. That said, an all-in battery replacement by Apple is $199. Once every 3 years isn't going to break the bank vs. like $50 for an X220 battery. Especially when an X220 gets like 7h of juice vs 17-22h for an M1/2 MacBook Pro.

ho_schi 4y ago
Yep. We should mention here improvements within the last decade? The X13 Gen3 (AMD) also should allow run theoretically 17 hours[1]. I think a peak was reached with the MacBook (Polycarbonate Body) or T430s which allowed to replace the battery at the device bottom with a coin, easy maintenance and sturdy frame. And good balance because the weight counteracted the open display. With "peak" I mean the situation that a thing reached a point where it was actually good and then get impaired. Sometimes because another feature was added but didn't fit. Or just for the sake of change. The seven vs. six row keyboard layout is such a thing. The 16:9 screens where everyone immediately wanted the 16:10 back (happening right now). The MiniSD-Slots replacing the SD-Slots... [1] https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3_AMD/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3_AMD_Spec.pdf https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X...
- eptcyka 4y ago
  How does one achieve 17 hours of battery life with an X13 Gen3 AMD? I can manage maybe 6.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    Do you have a discrete GPU? Disable it. Run TLP and powertop to see what uses too much power and to adjust tweakables.
    - eptcyka 4y ago
      I do not have a discrete GPU, have run TLP and Powertop and have adjusted the tweakables. Maybe it's my 1440p display.
      - sudosysgen 4y ago
        If you use zenmonitor, what is the package power on a typical workload? It should be 2-3W maximum normally. If it's too high, it's a too common case of manufacturers setting insane tweakables, and can be remediated using amdctl/ryzenadj/zenstates (or in some BIOSes using the PBO2 setting). Otherwise, it can sometimes be a bad SSD using a lot of power.
        eptcyka 4y ago
        I'll try those out, thank you for the tips.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  The big problem with newer AMD ThinkPads from what I've heard is use of some second-rate (mostly Realtek) components in places, which in comparison to those used on Intel models don't perform as well and are more likely to cause trouble under Linux.
  - gmokki 4y ago
    I just swapped the realtek wifi of my P14s amd gen 2 with Intel ax210. Cost was around 10€. I think since around one year ago upstream kernels do support the realtek wifi card properly.
  - ho_schi 4y ago
    Actually they use four different. You can swap them yourself (15 - 20 EUR): * Qualcomm (Atheros) -> GOOD (or even best?) * Intel -> GOOD * Realtek -> It works okay for average users * MediaTek -> Bad or lack of reputation The X13 is currently shipped with Qualcomm. Older T14 seem to use mostly Intel. On a P14 Lenovo we got a MediaTek (no reliable after Resume from Suspend) replaced by Realtek. I would be happy if AMD and Qualcomm team up together again. The questionable ARM-Deal with Microsoft also didn't worked out well for Qualcomm.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> Once every 3 years isn't going to break the bank vs. like $50 for an X220 battery. My Apple laptops haven't gotten frustratingly-low battery life—but, hell, still better than any PC laptop I've ever owned at purchase, even when "degraded"—until ~5 years, historically. Including the Intel ones. IDK what Apple does with their batteries (extra, "stealth" capacity? Just way, way higher-quality batteries than any other laptop or phone manufacturer I've ever used?) but they hold up better than any others I've seen. I expect the Silicon devices will fare even better, having truly stupid-long initial battery life (people who are like "LOL who the hell needs 14 hour battery life?"—this is why, if you want 8 hours of battery life after owning the device for five years; it's not just some niche oddball thing, it's about device longevity, in addition to being handy surprisingly-often in the meantime)
- paulmd 4y ago
  I think it's the "way higher quality battery". There are a lot of very low-quality non-OEM batteries, I've rarely had those last more than 6 months and they were wildly unsatisfactory even then. I managed to source a NOS OEM thinkpad battery off ebay and that was significantly higher quality than the usual junk but still, I think Apple is picky about batteries. While on the whole I'm not overly fond of the non-serviceable battery model on laptops, I do believe Apple when they say they lose money on their repair service as a whole. I just had my iphone 8+ battery replaced after 4 years (yeah it was starting to get real bad lol), I made a point of having it done at the apple store knowing that 4-year-old glue might not want to let loose, it ended up having a different problem and they ended up replacing the whole phone with a refurb, for the $49 cost of the battery repair. Sold, absolutely came out ahead on that, was starting to get glitchy anyway and it was a refurb phone in the first place, honestly was crossing my fingers they'd break it anyway. If you have an expensive MBP I think it'd be a hard sell to not take applecare, if you end up needing even 1 display replaced you come out ahead. That's the model, Apple really wants you on Applecare and they lose money doing it, it's all part of the package deal of ownership (which of course is not offered to secondhand owners, that's where they make the money). It's more of a mixed bag on the cheaper models... display replacement still has a decent service charge plus the applecare fee and it's not all that worth it on a say $700 laptop. You're gonna have paid a total of like $500 anyway if you need to use it, at some point the laptop is just totaled and you get a new one. Also probably not worth it on desktops (with the possible exception of imac). But on a $3000 macbook pro? Yeah I'd do it there for sure.

ho_schi 4y ago

Yep. We should mention here improvements within the last decade? The X13 Gen3 (AMD) also should allow run theoretically 17 hours[1]. I think a peak was reached with the MacBook (Polycarbonate Body) or T430s which allowed to replace the battery at the device bottom with a coin, easy maintenance and sturdy frame. And good balance because the weight counteracted the open display. With "peak" I mean the situation that a thing reached a point where it was actually good and then get impaired. Sometimes because another feature was added but didn't fit. Or just for the sake of change. The seven vs. six row keyboard layout is such a thing. The 16:9 screens where everyone immediately wanted the 16:10 back (happening right now). The MiniSD-Slots replacing the SD-Slots... [1] https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3_AMD/ThinkPad_X13_Gen_3_AMD_Spec.pdf https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_X...

eptcyka 4y ago
How does one achieve 17 hours of battery life with an X13 Gen3 AMD? I can manage maybe 6.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Do you have a discrete GPU? Disable it. Run TLP and powertop to see what uses too much power and to adjust tweakables.
  - eptcyka 4y ago
    I do not have a discrete GPU, have run TLP and Powertop and have adjusted the tweakables. Maybe it's my 1440p display.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      If you use zenmonitor, what is the package power on a typical workload? It should be 2-3W maximum normally. If it's too high, it's a too common case of manufacturers setting insane tweakables, and can be remediated using amdctl/ryzenadj/zenstates (or in some BIOSes using the PBO2 setting). Otherwise, it can sometimes be a bad SSD using a lot of power.
      - eptcyka 4y ago
        I'll try those out, thank you for the tips.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
The big problem with newer AMD ThinkPads from what I've heard is use of some second-rate (mostly Realtek) components in places, which in comparison to those used on Intel models don't perform as well and are more likely to cause trouble under Linux.
- gmokki 4y ago
  I just swapped the realtek wifi of my P14s amd gen 2 with Intel ax210. Cost was around 10€. I think since around one year ago upstream kernels do support the realtek wifi card properly.
- ho_schi 4y ago
  Actually they use four different. You can swap them yourself (15 - 20 EUR): * Qualcomm (Atheros) -> GOOD (or even best?) * Intel -> GOOD * Realtek -> It works okay for average users * MediaTek -> Bad or lack of reputation The X13 is currently shipped with Qualcomm. Older T14 seem to use mostly Intel. On a P14 Lenovo we got a MediaTek (no reliable after Resume from Suspend) replaced by Realtek. I would be happy if AMD and Qualcomm team up together again. The questionable ARM-Deal with Microsoft also didn't worked out well for Qualcomm.

yamtaddle 4y ago

> Once every 3 years isn't going to break the bank vs. like $50 for an X220 battery. My Apple laptops haven't gotten frustratingly-low battery life—but, hell, still better than any PC laptop I've ever owned at purchase, even when "degraded"—until ~5 years, historically. Including the Intel ones. IDK what Apple does with their batteries (extra, "stealth" capacity? Just way, way higher-quality batteries than any other laptop or phone manufacturer I've ever used?) but they hold up better than any others I've seen. I expect the Silicon devices will fare even better, having truly stupid-long initial battery life (people who are like "LOL who the hell needs 14 hour battery life?"—this is why, if you want 8 hours of battery life after owning the device for five years; it's not just some niche oddball thing, it's about device longevity, in addition to being handy surprisingly-often in the meantime)

paulmd 4y ago
I think it's the "way higher quality battery". There are a lot of very low-quality non-OEM batteries, I've rarely had those last more than 6 months and they were wildly unsatisfactory even then. I managed to source a NOS OEM thinkpad battery off ebay and that was significantly higher quality than the usual junk but still, I think Apple is picky about batteries. While on the whole I'm not overly fond of the non-serviceable battery model on laptops, I do believe Apple when they say they lose money on their repair service as a whole. I just had my iphone 8+ battery replaced after 4 years (yeah it was starting to get real bad lol), I made a point of having it done at the apple store knowing that 4-year-old glue might not want to let loose, it ended up having a different problem and they ended up replacing the whole phone with a refurb, for the $49 cost of the battery repair. Sold, absolutely came out ahead on that, was starting to get glitchy anyway and it was a refurb phone in the first place, honestly was crossing my fingers they'd break it anyway. If you have an expensive MBP I think it'd be a hard sell to not take applecare, if you end up needing even 1 display replaced you come out ahead. That's the model, Apple really wants you on Applecare and they lose money doing it, it's all part of the package deal of ownership (which of course is not offered to secondhand owners, that's where they make the money). It's more of a mixed bag on the cheaper models... display replacement still has a decent service charge plus the applecare fee and it's not all that worth it on a say $700 laptop. You're gonna have paid a total of like $500 anyway if you need to use it, at some point the laptop is just totaled and you get a new one. Also probably not worth it on desktops (with the possible exception of imac). But on a $3000 macbook pro? Yeah I'd do it there for sure.