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it may well be fear mongering, but food additives in general are just not a good thing. it barely matters what they are. barring a few well-studied exceptions,

it may well be fear mongering, but food additives in general are just not a good thing. it barely matters what they are. barring a few well-studied exceptions, in the first place, we shouldn’t be synthesising chemicals and adding them en masse to food which you otherwise wouldn’t expect to contain them obviously this is a rule of thumb and quite a generalisation. I’m sure a fair few counter-examples can be given, but is it better to generally follow this rule, or not? I say better

robertlagrant 4y ago
This is tricky, though. Where does it stop? If I really thought about what's natural, I wouldn't expect to find food at all.
- thfuran 4y ago
  Not even fruit?
  - aperson_hello 4y ago
    Humans have modified most fruits to be nearly unrecognizable compared to their original forms!
    - uoaei 4y ago
      There's a difference between phenotypic and genotypic modifications.
      - aperson_hello 4y ago
        Neither is "natural" And a whole lot of fruit is genotypically modified as well through various means!!
        uoaei 4y ago
        Well, phenotypic selection is natural in the inevitable, Darwinian sense. Genotypic selection is not because "nature" can't observe genes directly, only their expressions.
- bruce343434 4y ago
  Do you one better: what is "natural"? Are beaver dams natural? If so, are human buildings similarly natural? If so, are chemicals made by humans natural? Wasps and bees make a sort of paper, is that natural? How about human paper? Humans ARE nature. What we build IS nature. Or do you think beavers look at their dams and buildings and go "that shit is unnatural".
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    That's my point.
- permo-w 4y ago
  sorry for the late reply, but I didn't mention naturality. that would be far too vague. deadly nightshade is natural. bull sharks are natural. ebola is natural. et cetera. additives is still a bit vague, but at least that generally fits what I'm aiming for. if it wouldn't be in the food if you made it at home, then that's an additive. no need for "natural" to come into it
Hackbraten 4y ago
In general, would you consider spices to be food additives, too? (Not being snarky, just genuinely curious as to where to draw the line.)
- linuxftw 4y ago
  If it comes from an edible plant or animal source with minimal (eg, mechanical) processing, likely not an additive. There are exceptions to everything, of course. Celery can be used as a source of nitrates.
RHSeeger 4y ago
It sounds like you are defining "food additives" as the ones that you consider bad, and then saying they are bad in general. According to the WHO [1], food additives are > Substances that are added to food to maintain or improve the safety, freshness, taste, texture, or appearance of food are known as food additives. Some food additives have been in use for centuries for preservation – such as salt (in meats such as bacon or dried fish), sugar (in marmalade), or sulfur dioxide (in wine). I guess you could limit it to "food additives that are added only to maintain or improve the safety, freshness, taste, texture, or appearance of food are bad", but even then I'd argue that's not true in any real sense. The ability to keep food in a good state for longer is a boon to society as a whole. We just need to be careful about the side effects. [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/food-additives https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/food-additi...
- permo-w 4y ago
  it sounds like you’re reading more into my words than there is to read. additives are ingredients in mass-produced food that wouldn’t be there if you made the same thing at home. it’s as simple as that
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    But... that's _not_ what they are according to the definitions found in obvious places. Which is fine; it's a vague enough term that having your own definition is reasonable. That being said, I do disagree with your opinion that "they're all bad" even limited to the definition you gave. Being able to make food last longer is good. And recognizing that, it's a matter of tradeoffs for the additive in question.
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      Would you trade longer life expectancy for longer shelf life? I suspect anything that would prompt a "yes" from a food company is an additive the parent would ban.
    - permo-w 4y ago

robertlagrant 4y ago

This is tricky, though. Where does it stop? If I really thought about what's natural, I wouldn't expect to find food at all.

thfuran 4y ago
Not even fruit?
- aperson_hello 4y ago
  Humans have modified most fruits to be nearly unrecognizable compared to their original forms!
  - uoaei 4y ago
    There's a difference between phenotypic and genotypic modifications.
    - aperson_hello 4y ago
      Neither is "natural" And a whole lot of fruit is genotypically modified as well through various means!!
      - uoaei 4y ago
        Well, phenotypic selection is natural in the inevitable, Darwinian sense. Genotypic selection is not because "nature" can't observe genes directly, only their expressions.
bruce343434 4y ago
Do you one better: what is "natural"? Are beaver dams natural? If so, are human buildings similarly natural? If so, are chemicals made by humans natural? Wasps and bees make a sort of paper, is that natural? How about human paper? Humans ARE nature. What we build IS nature. Or do you think beavers look at their dams and buildings and go "that shit is unnatural".
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  That's my point.
permo-w 4y ago
sorry for the late reply, but I didn't mention naturality. that would be far too vague. deadly nightshade is natural. bull sharks are natural. ebola is natural. et cetera. additives is still a bit vague, but at least that generally fits what I'm aiming for. if it wouldn't be in the food if you made it at home, then that's an additive. no need for "natural" to come into it

Hackbraten 4y ago

In general, would you consider spices to be food additives, too? (Not being snarky, just genuinely curious as to where to draw the line.)

linuxftw 4y ago
If it comes from an edible plant or animal source with minimal (eg, mechanical) processing, likely not an additive. There are exceptions to everything, of course. Celery can be used as a source of nitrates.

RHSeeger 4y ago

It sounds like you are defining "food additives" as the ones that you consider bad, and then saying they are bad in general. According to the WHO [1], food additives are > Substances that are added to food to maintain or improve the safety, freshness, taste, texture, or appearance of food are known as food additives. Some food additives have been in use for centuries for preservation – such as salt (in meats such as bacon or dried fish), sugar (in marmalade), or sulfur dioxide (in wine). I guess you could limit it to "food additives that are added only to maintain or improve the safety, freshness, taste, texture, or appearance of food are bad", but even then I'd argue that's not true in any real sense. The ability to keep food in a good state for longer is a boon to society as a whole. We just need to be careful about the side effects. [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/food-additives https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/food-additi...

permo-w 4y ago
it sounds like you’re reading more into my words than there is to read. additives are ingredients in mass-produced food that wouldn’t be there if you made the same thing at home. it’s as simple as that
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  But... that's _not_ what they are according to the definitions found in obvious places. Which is fine; it's a vague enough term that having your own definition is reasonable. That being said, I do disagree with your opinion that "they're all bad" even limited to the definition you gave. Being able to make food last longer is good. And recognizing that, it's a matter of tradeoffs for the additive in question.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    Would you trade longer life expectancy for longer shelf life? I suspect anything that would prompt a "yes" from a food company is an additive the parent would ban.
  - permo-w 4y ago