6 ms·

Ppl believe in silly stuff like gender ideology today, even tho we have an almost complete understanding of human biology, so let’s not throw stones at history

stouset 4y ago
> we have an almost complete understanding of human biology Frankly I can’t believe someone would state such a thing with a straight face. Also, gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one. Are you confusing gender and sex?
- ulizzle 4y ago
  We do have an almost complete understanding, and I actually think I was being too generous; but at least for the purpose of this convo, we certainly do know about X & Y chromosomes. I don’t believe that gender is a psychological construct. I believe that gender & sex are synonymous & it’s a politically correct construct to differentiate them in any way.
  - stouset 4y ago
    Sure, why have two words to describe two separate but related concepts when we could just decide to pretend that one of those concepts doesn’t even exist? “Someone’s physical reproductive bits” and “someone’s own internal perception of their sexual identity” are two separate concepts even if you believe they ought to be in sync with one another. And then when you acknowledge that there do exist people who seem quite certain that those values differ for themselves—even if you think they oughtn’t—isn’t it nice to have a word that allows us to describe this exact scenario? Also, I’d encourage you to ask more or less any biologist whether or not they think we’re just about done wrapping up their field of expertise.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Some people of the same sex feel differently about their bodies and their sexuality. It seems useful to me to have words to describe that difference. I don't really see an "ideology" in that any more than I see "ideology" in other cultural phenomena, e.g. "surfer dudes", "skaters", or "weed aficionados". It's only made into an ideology by people who seek divisional talking points for political discourse.
    - stouset 4y ago
      Just imagine how quickly society would fall apart if we had people who don’t even surf calling themselves “surfer dudes” simply because all their friends surf, they dress and talk the part, and they participate enthusiastically in wider surfing culture.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    Then how do you define trans and nonbinary people such as myself?
    - slaw 4y ago
      If you produce sperm then you are male. If you produce ovum you are female. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female
      - stouset 4y ago
        Do you make a habit of collecting eggs and/or sperm from the people you meet for the purpose of determining their biological sex? How many of your friends’ and acquaintances’ gametes have you confirmed? If this person[1] tells you that they are a man, what level of scrutiny should they be subject to in order to confirm this to your satisfaction? If you do not intend to reproduce with them, to what end is it important that you establish which type of gamete they produce? If a future surgery allows a woman to produce sperm, is this what will qualify them as a man from your perspective? Where do hermaphrodites fit into this picture? What about people that produce neither sperm nor ova? [1]: https://trueactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/transgender-man-before-and-after-jamie-wilson-6.jpg https://trueactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/transgen...
        slaw 4y ago
        Yes, if future surgery allows a women to change their chromosome and produce sperm then they will be a man.
        stouset 4y ago
        Do you consider a tomato to be a vegetable or a fruit? Biologically, a tomato is a fruit. This is inarguable fact. If you are a biologist breeding new strains, you will conceptualize a tomato as a fruit. And yet culinarily a tomato is a vegetable. Put a tomato in a fruit salad and people are going to look at you funny. Note that a biologist who eats food can and will consider a tomato both a fruit and a vegetable depending on the context. If you can understand this, you can understand that someone’s biological sex—primarily relevant to reproduction and healthcare—can differ from their psychological sex (i.e., their gender), which is more relevant to social contexts. Both can be true simultaneously, but unless you’re a doctor caring for a trans person or intending to perform reproductive acts with them, someone’s psychological sex is almost certainly more relevant to your relationship with them than which gamete they happen excrete.
  - gonnies 4y ago
    It's massively complex once you start digging down into the details, and the bulk of it really is unknown. I used to work in biomedical research and the enormity of just how much we don't know became more apparent the more I learned about the topic. That said, I agree with you on how nonsensical gender ideology is. I find it particularly irksome because of how unscientific the whole thing is, there is a huge amount of bullshit being passed off as facts.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  >gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one. are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis? >Are you confusing gender and sex? American Heritage Dictionary usage note on this point: Usage Note: Some people maintain that the word sex should be reserved for reference to the biological aspects of being male or female or to sexual activity, and that the word gender should be used only to refer to sociocultural roles. Accordingly, one would say The effectiveness of the treatment appears to depend on the sex of the patient and In society, gender roles are clearly defined. In some situations this distinction avoids ambiguity, as in gender research, which is clear in a way that sex research is not. The distinction can be problematic, however. Linguistically, there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias, and it may seem contrived to insist that sex is incorrect in this instance. source, and of course the definitions https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=sex https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=sex
  - stouset 4y ago
    > are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis Yes, yes, psychology is applied neurology is applied biology is applied chemistry is applied physics. And yet we have psychologists and neurologists and biologists and chemists and physicists and they all seem to believe they have different jobs. Your quoted usage note is stating that the word “gender“ can mean the same thing as “sex” in certain contexts. Not that it can’t mean something different. And the context is quite clear from the surrounding discussion. Playing pointless semantic games doesn’t buy you any points.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      your statement doesn't make any point other than mine, but do you mean semantic games like saying that gender is different from sex? the (Big) Five Factor model of personality (standard psychology) measures sex-based population (density) differences, and shows up across cultures.
      - 4y ago

stouset 4y ago

> we have an almost complete understanding of human biology Frankly I can’t believe someone would state such a thing with a straight face. Also, gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one. Are you confusing gender and sex?

ulizzle 4y ago
We do have an almost complete understanding, and I actually think I was being too generous; but at least for the purpose of this convo, we certainly do know about X & Y chromosomes. I don’t believe that gender is a psychological construct. I believe that gender & sex are synonymous & it’s a politically correct construct to differentiate them in any way.
- stouset 4y ago
  Sure, why have two words to describe two separate but related concepts when we could just decide to pretend that one of those concepts doesn’t even exist? “Someone’s physical reproductive bits” and “someone’s own internal perception of their sexual identity” are two separate concepts even if you believe they ought to be in sync with one another. And then when you acknowledge that there do exist people who seem quite certain that those values differ for themselves—even if you think they oughtn’t—isn’t it nice to have a word that allows us to describe this exact scenario? Also, I’d encourage you to ask more or less any biologist whether or not they think we’re just about done wrapping up their field of expertise.
- adrianN 4y ago
  Some people of the same sex feel differently about their bodies and their sexuality. It seems useful to me to have words to describe that difference. I don't really see an "ideology" in that any more than I see "ideology" in other cultural phenomena, e.g. "surfer dudes", "skaters", or "weed aficionados". It's only made into an ideology by people who seek divisional talking points for political discourse.
  - stouset 4y ago
    Just imagine how quickly society would fall apart if we had people who don’t even surf calling themselves “surfer dudes” simply because all their friends surf, they dress and talk the part, and they participate enthusiastically in wider surfing culture.
- flangola7 4y ago
  Then how do you define trans and nonbinary people such as myself?
  - slaw 4y ago
    If you produce sperm then you are male. If you produce ovum you are female. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female
    - stouset 4y ago
      Do you make a habit of collecting eggs and/or sperm from the people you meet for the purpose of determining their biological sex? How many of your friends’ and acquaintances’ gametes have you confirmed? If this person[1] tells you that they are a man, what level of scrutiny should they be subject to in order to confirm this to your satisfaction? If you do not intend to reproduce with them, to what end is it important that you establish which type of gamete they produce? If a future surgery allows a woman to produce sperm, is this what will qualify them as a man from your perspective? Where do hermaphrodites fit into this picture? What about people that produce neither sperm nor ova? [1]: https://trueactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/transgender-man-before-and-after-jamie-wilson-6.jpg https://trueactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/transgen...
      - slaw 4y ago
        Yes, if future surgery allows a women to change their chromosome and produce sperm then they will be a man.
        stouset 4y ago
        Do you consider a tomato to be a vegetable or a fruit? Biologically, a tomato is a fruit. This is inarguable fact. If you are a biologist breeding new strains, you will conceptualize a tomato as a fruit. And yet culinarily a tomato is a vegetable. Put a tomato in a fruit salad and people are going to look at you funny. Note that a biologist who eats food can and will consider a tomato both a fruit and a vegetable depending on the context. If you can understand this, you can understand that someone’s biological sex—primarily relevant to reproduction and healthcare—can differ from their psychological sex (i.e., their gender), which is more relevant to social contexts. Both can be true simultaneously, but unless you’re a doctor caring for a trans person or intending to perform reproductive acts with them, someone’s psychological sex is almost certainly more relevant to your relationship with them than which gamete they happen excrete.
- gonnies 4y ago
  It's massively complex once you start digging down into the details, and the bulk of it really is unknown. I used to work in biomedical research and the enormity of just how much we don't know became more apparent the more I learned about the topic. That said, I agree with you on how nonsensical gender ideology is. I find it particularly irksome because of how unscientific the whole thing is, there is a huge amount of bullshit being passed off as facts.
fsckboy 4y ago
>gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one. are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis? >Are you confusing gender and sex? American Heritage Dictionary usage note on this point: Usage Note: Some people maintain that the word sex should be reserved for reference to the biological aspects of being male or female or to sexual activity, and that the word gender should be used only to refer to sociocultural roles. Accordingly, one would say The effectiveness of the treatment appears to depend on the sex of the patient and In society, gender roles are clearly defined. In some situations this distinction avoids ambiguity, as in gender research, which is clear in a way that sex research is not. The distinction can be problematic, however. Linguistically, there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias, and it may seem contrived to insist that sex is incorrect in this instance. source, and of course the definitions https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=sex https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=sex
- stouset 4y ago
  > are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis Yes, yes, psychology is applied neurology is applied biology is applied chemistry is applied physics. And yet we have psychologists and neurologists and biologists and chemists and physicists and they all seem to believe they have different jobs. Your quoted usage note is stating that the word “gender“ can mean the same thing as “sex” in certain contexts. Not that it can’t mean something different. And the context is quite clear from the surrounding discussion. Playing pointless semantic games doesn’t buy you any points.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    your statement doesn't make any point other than mine, but do you mean semantic games like saying that gender is different from sex? the (Big) Five Factor model of personality (standard psychology) measures sex-based population (density) differences, and shows up across cultures.
    - 4y ago