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There was no civil war before Russia manufactured it to take advantage of political instability and invade. There is no reason to speak of "pro-Russian separati
by mopsi 4y ago
There was no civil war before Russia manufactured it to take advantage of political instability and invade. There is no reason to speak of "pro-Russian separatists" as anything distinct from Russian armed forces. It's baffling how so many people in the west can't see through this simple deception. Russia saw an opportunity to invade, set up puppet states and then came to their rescue.
The European Court of Human Rights ruled last month:
> Among other things, the Court found that areas in eastern Ukraine in separatist hands were, from 11 May 2014 and up to at least 26 January 2022, under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. It referred to the presence in eastern Ukraine of Russian military personnel from April 2014 and the large-scale deployment of Russian troops from August 2014 at the latest. It further found that the respondent State had a significant influence on the separatists’ military strategy; that it had provided weapons and other military equipment to separatists on a significant scale from the earliest days of the “DPR” and the “LPR” and over the following months and years; that it had carried out artillery attacks upon requests from the separatists; and that it had provided political and economic support to the separatists.
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&id=003-7550165-10372782&filename=Grand%20Chamber%20decision%20Ukraine%20and%20the%20Netherlands%20v.%20Russia%20-%20Flight%20MH17%20and%20eastern-Ukraine-conflict%20case%20partially%20admissible%2C%20will%20proceed%20to%20judgment.pdf https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&...
- leereeves 4y agoAll of that, save the artillery strikes, is also true of the US in western Ukraine: presence of military personnel; significant influence on military strategy; provided weapons, political, and economic support. That certainly doesn't mean western Ukraine is "under the jurisdiction of" the US, so I don't see how that claim is justified about Russia. And your own source acknowledges that the violence began before the Russian presence: > In early March 2014, pro-Russian protests began across eastern regions of Ukraine, including the Donetsk and Luhansk regions (“Donbass”). Some of the protestors formed armed groups and the violence rapidly escalated, with pro-Russian separatists seizing public buildings Note that's in March, before "the presence in eastern Ukraine of Russian military personnel from April 2014 and the large-scale deployment of Russian troops from August 2014 at the latest"
- mopsi 4y ago> All of that, save the artillery strikes, is also true of the US in western Ukraine: presence of military personnel; significant influence on military strategy; provided weapons, political, and economic support. The US has no comparable presence of military personnel in Ukraine, its armed forces have not taken control of any region of Ukraine. Furthermore, the aid that 50+ countries provide is in official support of the internationally recognized government and not of a mix of thugs and Russian intelligence operatives who have violently stormed a government building. > And your own source acknowledges that the violence began before the Russian presence: Yes, and Russia "had provided weapons and other military equipment to separatists on a significant scale from the earliest days of the “DPR” and the “LPR”".
- leereeves 4y agoThe point is, these are Ukranians who asked for Russian help, both in 2014 and in 2022: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-allies-step-up-sanctions-pressure-russia-over-ukraine-2022-02-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-allies-step-up-sanct... What would the US do if tens of thousands of Americans asked for help after a coup in another country?
- mopsi 4y agoThe link you posted demonstrates how ridiculous that point is. By the time Russian operatives disguised as DNR and LNR leaders asked for "help", Russia had been amassing army on Ukraine's borders for months, not to mention that LNR and DNR themselves had been for many years under total Russian control, as ruled by ECHR. This was Russian military administration of occupied territories creating a pretext for wider invasion, nothing more.
- leereeves 4y agoThat link says Denis Pushilin (a Ukrainian) asked for help. It says nothing about "Russian operatives disguised as DNR and LNR leaders".