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Then there is the line that says there are very few cows now but still the same conditions persist. Meaning it could be a different source and cause of the exce

Then there is the line that says there are very few cows now but still the same conditions persist. Meaning it could be a different source and cause of the excess sediments to flow into the ocean. I am going to take a complete negative view when someone mentions overgrazing as the cause of vegetation decline. In South Africa, there is a person who predicted for the British that by removing 30,000 elephants we can restore the land and vegetation. He later went down to regret that and realize it became a lot worse than it was before. The elephants were helping.

myshpa 4y ago
Yes, that elephant story is well known, and sad, but there is a difference. Elephants won't stay in one place long enough to overgraze, they tend to migrate and eat something here and there, spread seads from one place to another and make place for new growth in forests by making new paths through the forests, etc. They are helping the ecosystems. We can't say the same of herds of cows, who will happily stay in one place until they eat every little green blade of grass, pull out every last root and trample in the rest, so nothing more than mud remains. In this days it can't be overgrazing that's the problem. Now the animal ag hides the animals, as there are not even enough pastures for all the cows we have. How many farm animals have you seen in the last month, considering that in US alone 19000 land animals is killed every minute (IIRC)? Almost all farm animals are hidden in windowless buildings, out of sight, out of mind. So not freely grazing animals - more likely the problem is runoff from farms (via rivers) now, I presume.
- dgacmu 4y ago
  That's not true at all. Almost all cattle are raised on pasture for the first (roughly) half of their life. Then some are raised the rest of the way on pasture (grass-finished) and substantially more are moved to a feedlot, a large outdoor pen where they're fed on a mix of grains, soy, and whatever feedstock is nutritionally sufficient and available cheaply. If you're not seeing them it's because you're not going where they are. Land in places like the bay area is WAY too expensive to use for grazing. C'mon over to Pennsylvania, I can show you thousands of cows within an hour or two of Pittsburgh. (I run an agtech startup that specializes in helping cattle ranchers optimize their grazing operations to reduce the need for buying supplementaln grain and sequester more carbon via improved pasture management.) Overgrazing can absolutely be a problem, as can run-off from feedlots. It's really important to hit the right stocking rate (the number of head of animals per acre) in order to operate regeneratively instead of destructively. (Disclaimer: that's part of what we help ranchers do, so I'm a little biased here! :)
  - myshpa 4y ago
    > https://extension.sdstate.edu/grass-fed-beef-market-share-grass-fed-beef https://extension.sdstate.edu/grass-fed-beef-market-share-gr... (updated June 28, 2021) "About 4% of U.S. beef retail and food service sales is comprised by grass-fed beef with a value of roughly $4 billion. .. There were about 92 million head of cattle in the United States at the end of 2015, with roughly 30 million head slaughtered that year. For perspective, the grass-fed industry currently slaughters about 230,000 head, or less than 1% of the total conventional slaughter." > https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/08/13/746576239/is-grass-fed-beef-really-better-for-the-planet-heres-the-science https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/08/13/746576239/is... "About 75% to 80% of grass-fed beef sold in the U.S. is grown abroad, from Australia, New Zealand and parts of South America ..." At least we know where the Amazon beef goes to.
    - dgacmu 4y ago
      Yes. "grass fed" here means finished on grass. The first 600-800lbs of growth are almost always on pasture, eating a mix of forage (the grasses) and possibly supplemental feed in winter depending on location. As I said above, most animals are finished (grown from 600-800 to final weight of about 1400lbs) on a feedlot eating grains and soy and whatnot. Those are not counted as grass-fed beef. Feedlots are still outdoors. It's silly expensive to build a building around them. Feedlots are big.
      - myshpa 4y ago
        You're right about buildings and feedlots. I'm not from USA, we don't really have feedlots here. I must have been thinking about dairy cows, pigs and chickens. Crammed in buildings like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20230219172107/https://i.redd.it/bszw3bosz7ja1.jpg https://web.archive.org/web/20230219172107/https://i.redd.it... https://images.ctfassets.net/ww1ie0z745y7/6Uw3q2e3Ee5LLG53DsDIvP/aaf6ccc729974ff755a476ab4d5ff75e/img-news-article-placeholder_2x.png https://images.ctfassets.net/ww1ie0z745y7/6Uw3q2e3Ee5LLG53Ds...
        dgacmu 4y ago
zx8080 4y ago
40k elephants. Not 30k. Never heard that story before, but what a market person. He made money killing elephants, and now is making money telling stories about that (was bad) and teaching others "a new framework for decision making" [0]. Wow. 0 - https://www.bookdepository.com/Holistic-Management-Allan-Savory/9781610917438 https://www.bookdepository.com/Holistic-Management-Allan-Sav...
boomboomsubban 4y ago
>Then there is the line that says there are very few cows now but still the same conditions persist. They say the cause was the destruction of the fauna, something that hasn't really returned. The cows were tge ones that destroyed the fauna.

myshpa 4y ago

Yes, that elephant story is well known, and sad, but there is a difference. Elephants won't stay in one place long enough to overgraze, they tend to migrate and eat something here and there, spread seads from one place to another and make place for new growth in forests by making new paths through the forests, etc. They are helping the ecosystems. We can't say the same of herds of cows, who will happily stay in one place until they eat every little green blade of grass, pull out every last root and trample in the rest, so nothing more than mud remains. In this days it can't be overgrazing that's the problem. Now the animal ag hides the animals, as there are not even enough pastures for all the cows we have. How many farm animals have you seen in the last month, considering that in US alone 19000 land animals is killed every minute (IIRC)? Almost all farm animals are hidden in windowless buildings, out of sight, out of mind. So not freely grazing animals - more likely the problem is runoff from farms (via rivers) now, I presume.

dgacmu 4y ago
That's not true at all. Almost all cattle are raised on pasture for the first (roughly) half of their life. Then some are raised the rest of the way on pasture (grass-finished) and substantially more are moved to a feedlot, a large outdoor pen where they're fed on a mix of grains, soy, and whatever feedstock is nutritionally sufficient and available cheaply. If you're not seeing them it's because you're not going where they are. Land in places like the bay area is WAY too expensive to use for grazing. C'mon over to Pennsylvania, I can show you thousands of cows within an hour or two of Pittsburgh. (I run an agtech startup that specializes in helping cattle ranchers optimize their grazing operations to reduce the need for buying supplementaln grain and sequester more carbon via improved pasture management.) Overgrazing can absolutely be a problem, as can run-off from feedlots. It's really important to hit the right stocking rate (the number of head of animals per acre) in order to operate regeneratively instead of destructively. (Disclaimer: that's part of what we help ranchers do, so I'm a little biased here! :)
- myshpa 4y ago
  > https://extension.sdstate.edu/grass-fed-beef-market-share-grass-fed-beef https://extension.sdstate.edu/grass-fed-beef-market-share-gr... (updated June 28, 2021) "About 4% of U.S. beef retail and food service sales is comprised by grass-fed beef with a value of roughly $4 billion. .. There were about 92 million head of cattle in the United States at the end of 2015, with roughly 30 million head slaughtered that year. For perspective, the grass-fed industry currently slaughters about 230,000 head, or less than 1% of the total conventional slaughter." > https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/08/13/746576239/is-grass-fed-beef-really-better-for-the-planet-heres-the-science https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/08/13/746576239/is... "About 75% to 80% of grass-fed beef sold in the U.S. is grown abroad, from Australia, New Zealand and parts of South America ..." At least we know where the Amazon beef goes to.
  - dgacmu 4y ago
    Yes. "grass fed" here means finished on grass. The first 600-800lbs of growth are almost always on pasture, eating a mix of forage (the grasses) and possibly supplemental feed in winter depending on location. As I said above, most animals are finished (grown from 600-800 to final weight of about 1400lbs) on a feedlot eating grains and soy and whatnot. Those are not counted as grass-fed beef. Feedlots are still outdoors. It's silly expensive to build a building around them. Feedlots are big.
    - myshpa 4y ago
      You're right about buildings and feedlots. I'm not from USA, we don't really have feedlots here. I must have been thinking about dairy cows, pigs and chickens. Crammed in buildings like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20230219172107/https://i.redd.it/bszw3bosz7ja1.jpg https://web.archive.org/web/20230219172107/https://i.redd.it... https://images.ctfassets.net/ww1ie0z745y7/6Uw3q2e3Ee5LLG53DsDIvP/aaf6ccc729974ff755a476ab4d5ff75e/img-news-article-placeholder_2x.png https://images.ctfassets.net/ww1ie0z745y7/6Uw3q2e3Ee5LLG53Ds...
      - dgacmu 4y ago

zx8080 4y ago

40k elephants. Not 30k. Never heard that story before, but what a market person. He made money killing elephants, and now is making money telling stories about that (was bad) and teaching others "a new framework for decision making" [0]. Wow. 0 - https://www.bookdepository.com/Holistic-Management-Allan-Savory/9781610917438 https://www.bookdepository.com/Holistic-Management-Allan-Sav...

boomboomsubban 4y ago

>Then there is the line that says there are very few cows now but still the same conditions persist. They say the cause was the destruction of the fauna, something that hasn't really returned. The cows were tge ones that destroyed the fauna.