10 ms·

Odd choice using systemd syntax willingly when all other industry tools use YAML, IMO

qbasic_forever 4y ago
You can apparently use kubernetes YAML with a .kube target and podman will orchestrate the containers, service, volumes appropriately (on a single node). The only systemd config is a minimal boilerplate to point at the kubernetes YAML.
- richm31415 4y ago
  You are correct. And there is an Ansible role for automated management: https://github.com/linux-system-roles/podman/ https://github.com/linux-system-roles/podman/
thayne 4y ago
For this, systemd syntax is a lot better than yaml IMO. In fact, I'd prefer if the tools you mentioned used something else besides yaml.
- messe 4y ago
  > In fact, I'd prefer if the tools you mentioned used something else besides yaml. Unfortunately, there norway way that's going happen.
- pzmarzly 4y ago
  > In fact, I'd prefer if the tools you mentioned used something else besides yaml. To be fair, most of the popular DevOps tools can work with JSON instead of YAML just fine. And JSON can be easily generated from almost anywhere. I don't think you can work with systemd syntax as easily.
  - gh02t 4y ago
    Out of curiosity, do you know any tools that can't use JSON but can use YAML? JSON is supposed to be valid YAML.
    - erik_seaberg 4y ago
      Every YAML parser supports JSON (maybe modulo a couple of weird Unicode chars), but YAML also has features (tags, start/end document) that you can’t express in JSON, so it depends on whether the tool relies on seeing those.
0xC0ncord 4y ago
It seemed to me that the original target audience for this is users already familiar with systemd's unit syntax, so making these "unit files" use it as well was a sensible choice.
throwaway892238 4y ago
RedHat basically sponsored the development of Systemd (among other things) so their full-throated support isn't surprising also, fwiw, YAML is a data serialization format, not a configuration format. people who use YAML and pretend it's a config file format are either lazy, incompetent, or both.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  The industry disagrees with your hot take. Configurations will almost always be serialized into some kind of struct, YAML/JSON/TOML/etc work well for this. The neat part is you can use other tools to do the templating to YAML more intelligently, instead of having each tool DIY their own config templating setup.
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    Hot take? It's literally a data serialization language. Configuration != data serialization for, like, all of time. No one is mincing words about YAML being used for configuration rather rampantly. They're saying it's a shitshow, and I agree. > Configurations will almost always be serialized into some kind of struct No, this is in fact a fairly modern phenomenon due to what I can only imagine is fear of compilers. The grand tradition is for configuration to be parsed and interpreted, which is rather distinct from serialization. Take your editor, or version control software of choice, or nearly every file in /etc, for example. Standardizing things can be good, sure, and for all the warts YAML is at least consistent, usually, but it's a trend in the wrong direction. Treating configuration as data is a Choice. I can hear them saying now "oh but being able to template or write a program to manipulate or edit configuration is so much better" -- take a look at how git config works. You can edit interactively with the CLI, read/write arbitrary fields, and yet it's not structured beyond INI style "key = value". There's no schema, and yet nothing is lost. There's certainly no Norway problem.
- db48x 4y ago
  Possibly they are deliberately abusive towards their users.
userbinator 4y ago
Odd to call it "systemd syntax" when it predates the invention of systemd by a few decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INI_file https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INI_file
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  That's what it's called: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.syntax.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.syn... Yes, it's inspired by INI files.
viraptor 4y ago
It's a tool that replaces your usual long systemd unit file with a smaller systemd unit file without boilerplate. Seems like a perfectly good choice to me.
darthrupert 4y ago
YAML is such a poor default choice for most things, that it's not odd at all to want to improve on that. In the same vein, people used to say that JSON is a bad format to use because everyone just uses XML.

You can apparently use kubernetes YAML with a .kube target and podman will orchestrate the containers, service, volumes appropriately (on a single node). The only systemd config is a minimal boilerplate to point at the kubernetes YAML.

richm31415 4y ago
You are correct. And there is an Ansible role for automated management: https://github.com/linux-system-roles/podman/ https://github.com/linux-system-roles/podman/

thayne 4y ago

For this, systemd syntax is a lot better than yaml IMO. In fact, I'd prefer if the tools you mentioned used something else besides yaml.

messe 4y ago
> In fact, I'd prefer if the tools you mentioned used something else besides yaml. Unfortunately, there norway way that's going happen.
pzmarzly 4y ago
> In fact, I'd prefer if the tools you mentioned used something else besides yaml. To be fair, most of the popular DevOps tools can work with JSON instead of YAML just fine. And JSON can be easily generated from almost anywhere. I don't think you can work with systemd syntax as easily.
- gh02t 4y ago
  Out of curiosity, do you know any tools that can't use JSON but can use YAML? JSON is supposed to be valid YAML.
  - erik_seaberg 4y ago
    Every YAML parser supports JSON (maybe modulo a couple of weird Unicode chars), but YAML also has features (tags, start/end document) that you can’t express in JSON, so it depends on whether the tool relies on seeing those.

0xC0ncord 4y ago

It seemed to me that the original target audience for this is users already familiar with systemd's unit syntax, so making these "unit files" use it as well was a sensible choice.

throwaway892238 4y ago

RedHat basically sponsored the development of Systemd (among other things) so their full-throated support isn't surprising also, fwiw, YAML is a data serialization format, not a configuration format. people who use YAML and pretend it's a config file format are either lazy, incompetent, or both.

candiddevmike 4y ago
The industry disagrees with your hot take. Configurations will almost always be serialized into some kind of struct, YAML/JSON/TOML/etc work well for this. The neat part is you can use other tools to do the templating to YAML more intelligently, instead of having each tool DIY their own config templating setup.
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  Hot take? It's literally a data serialization language. Configuration != data serialization for, like, all of time. No one is mincing words about YAML being used for configuration rather rampantly. They're saying it's a shitshow, and I agree. > Configurations will almost always be serialized into some kind of struct No, this is in fact a fairly modern phenomenon due to what I can only imagine is fear of compilers. The grand tradition is for configuration to be parsed and interpreted, which is rather distinct from serialization. Take your editor, or version control software of choice, or nearly every file in /etc, for example. Standardizing things can be good, sure, and for all the warts YAML is at least consistent, usually, but it's a trend in the wrong direction. Treating configuration as data is a Choice. I can hear them saying now "oh but being able to template or write a program to manipulate or edit configuration is so much better" -- take a look at how git config works. You can edit interactively with the CLI, read/write arbitrary fields, and yet it's not structured beyond INI style "key = value". There's no schema, and yet nothing is lost. There's certainly no Norway problem.
db48x 4y ago
Possibly they are deliberately abusive towards their users.

userbinator 4y ago

Odd to call it "systemd syntax" when it predates the invention of systemd by a few decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INI_file https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INI_file

candiddevmike 4y ago
That's what it's called: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.syntax.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.syn... Yes, it's inspired by INI files.

viraptor 4y ago

It's a tool that replaces your usual long systemd unit file with a smaller systemd unit file without boilerplate. Seems like a perfectly good choice to me.

darthrupert 4y ago

YAML is such a poor default choice for most things, that it's not odd at all to want to improve on that. In the same vein, people used to say that JSON is a bad format to use because everyone just uses XML.