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Getting something in return for trading something is not a 'trap'. Here's what actual Africans think about China: https://www.quora.com/Do-Africans-dislike-Chi

Getting something in return for trading something is not a 'trap'. Here's what actual Africans think about China: https://www.quora.com/Do-Africans-dislike-Chinese/answer/Jean-Claude-Adzalla https://www.quora.com/Do-Africans-dislike-Chinese/answer/Jea... https://www.quora.com/Is-China-colonizing-Africa/answer/Anthony-M-Anderson https://www.quora.com/Is-China-colonizing-Africa/answer/Anth... 'A trap' is what the Anglosaxon financial establishment did to my country: Forced us to privatize our national assets to starve our government of GDP so that the government will fall deeper in debt. Which is why that's called a 'trap' because you cant get out of it. So much that the government was totally deprived of revenue in merely a decade after having been forced to privatize all national assets through 'free market'. Then this was used to force the government to destroy labor protections and business regulations to 'boost the market', turning the economy and the society to scorched earth. But foreign investment did excellent in this environment, especially corporations located in the US and its satellites. There is no such thing in any deals with China. It does not intervene in any country or its governance when making deals. You trade. You sign a deal to trade them X amount of minerals. They sign to give you whatever you want. That's it. No other conditions attached. They don't even make any commentary about your economy, leave aside your ideology, your system or how you should be doing things. That's why all the countries prefer China and BRICS instead of the US and its satellites now. What's appalling is that how the very financial establishment that has been made famous as the 'economic hitmen' smears other countries of what it has always been doing and people like you repeat it without putting any critical thought into the process. No wonder you people are still paying for Iraq War Debt.

NicoJuicy 4y ago
> There is no such thing in any deals with China Tell that to Lithuania ( delisted as a country by China), Taiwan ( a "province"), Tibet ( invaded), Hong Kong ( taken over), ... Concerning debt trap. Are you aware that Africa is paying off debt for mostly Chinese workers/companies/contractors for those failed infrastructure projects? Bringing in almost no employment to Africans. https://thediplomat.com/2022/03/how-chinas-ambitious-belt-and-road-plans-for-east-africa-came-apart/ https://thediplomat.com/2022/03/how-chinas-ambitious-belt-an... The thing you're forgetting is that China doesn't care about the countries and their inability to pay them back. They are interested in how they are getting paid back. Eg. Ports in Sri Lanka, Zambia, Nigeria, ... https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/ https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la... Bridge of 3,1 b$ for the Maldives - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52743072 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52743072 Angola - https://theprint.in/world/angolan-model-viewed-as-early-example-of-chinese-debt-trap-tactics/1048009/ https://theprint.in/world/angolan-model-viewed-as-early-exam... I'm willing to wait to see how this all plays out and who is right here. Are you? > Angola still owes China more than USD 23 billion, mostly from oil-backed loans. With declining production, this means that most of Angola’s output is going to China, preventing Africa’s second-largest oil producer from selling its major source of income on the open market. PS. It isn't solely Africa, but also Australia and European countries ( mostly in the east ) already decided that it's better to not be in debt with China ( and they have gotten not pleasant suprises) https://www.dw.com/en/cracks-appear-in-chinas-new-silk-road/a-57388521 https://www.dw.com/en/cracks-appear-in-chinas-new-silk-road/... PS. Ukraine also had a deal with China, they were even under a nuclear umbrella of China ( lol) during the "one road one belt" project. We can all see how that "protection" turned out. https://www.wsj.com/articles/under-new-scrutiny-chinas-nuclear-pledge-to-ukraine-11647007200 https://www.wsj.com/articles/under-new-scrutiny-chinas-nucle... ----------------- On top of this, your "links" only name 1 infrastructure project: "the Mombasa railway"... Dare to do a sanity check? https://www.voanews.com/a/kenya-wants-to-renegotiate-loans-for-chinese-built-railway-/6796765.html https://www.voanews.com/a/kenya-wants-to-renegotiate-loans-f... > "It becomes impossible to be able to pay that loan by revenue that comes from the railways. And even in 50 years, it will not break even if you load the loans to the railways," Murkomen said. Let's dig a bit deeper in the country. https://www.wionews.com/world/kenya-discloses-loan-documents-of-chinese-built-railway-amid-looming-debt-crisis-532646 https://www.wionews.com/world/kenya-discloses-loan-documents... > any major dispute over the railway would be decided in Beijing https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-may-seize-kenyan-assets-amid-mounting-debts-report-3455850 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-may-seize-kenyan-asset... China is willing to give those countries loans to repay those Chinese loans. But they do have higher interests and shorter repay terms... Good luck.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > Tell that to Lithuania ( delisted as a country by China), Taiwan ( a "province"), Tibet ( invaded), Hong Kong ( taken over) Any country is free to trade with whomever they want. Nothing happens to Lithuania for being 'delisted'. Tibet has been historically part of China like Hong Kong. And the invasion of Tibet deposed an actual serfdom regime. How is Hong Kong, a CHINESE city being taken over by China after the LEASE that the English forced them out of that city, is an argument. NONE of these are any arguments for trade deals. If you go about making such arguments, the other side that you apparently support would come up far worse. So avoid going there. ... Voice of America is a CIA trumpet and showing it as an argument for anything is an insult to dozens of countries where it has been used as a tool for coups and regime change. Not surprisingly every country in the global south is thinking totally the opposite after so many coups that were organized and trumpeted in their country by the CIA via filth like Voice of America. You people's defense of the indefensible makes the case of China far stronger. Linking VoA as a source to someone whose country suffered multiple US backed coups. That does the trick, yeah. You totally persuaded me.
  - NicoJuicy 4y ago
    Hong Kong - National Security Law ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/24/uk-net-migration-figures-record-ons https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/24/uk-net-migra... ) Delisted = immediate ban of any trade with China, since the country can't be found in software ( = trade ban) Either way, it's not my intent to pursuade you. I'll let you figure it out on your own. Which country?
    - unity1001 4y ago
      Yeah, everybody on the planet 'figured it out' on their own after 40 years of US neoliberal plunder, thank you very much.
      - NicoJuicy 4y ago
        Sure. Perhaps you should dig more into Russia, if you want to see countries actually destroyed. PS. Again, which country? :)
SlickNixon 4y ago
>You sign a deal to trade them X amount of minerals. The sharp end here is what happens if you don't come up with the minerals.
- unity1001 4y ago
  They stop giving you whatever you traded the minerals for. How is that even an argument. In what world you stop providing your end of a trade bargain and the other side keeps giving you what they were trading for. Sounds crazy.
  - SlickNixon 4y ago
    What if they paid in advance?
    - unity1001 4y ago
      What if none of those nonsensical hypotheticals did not happen.
      - SlickNixon 4y ago
        I was referring of course to the hypothetical of the United States making deals to purchase minerals, paying in advance, then subjecting the countries in question to humiliating financial consequences when they can't deliver.
        unity1001 4y ago
        There are many cases of the US literally walking back on its word or unilaterally canceling deals because it could. It even cancelled its sovereign debt that it had to other countries a few times in history. The countries used to take it because they had to. Which precisely why the global south now prefers China, Russia, Brazil, India and the entire new bloc around BRICS, SCO etc: They don't have to tolerate anything with China or Russia. When a deal is broken by a country, these two countries just stop doing business with that other country until some agreement is reached. Its simple business/trade. So much that China avoids even saying things that could be interpreted as commentaries on other countries' policies, the way to do things or their culture. Ending up in very dry press releases.
cuteboy19 4y ago
Both are true, both are traps. Eventually all the countries in extreme debt to China will be forced to vassalize. BRICs is dead, sorry. Two of these are nearly at war with each other every few months. We should be able to consider that one thing being bad does not negate another thing from being bad. It is true that the US has been the big bad for a while now, but two can play at that game, it seems
- NicoJuicy 4y ago
  BRICS future under China is similar to North Korea. Totally dependent on China...

NicoJuicy 4y ago

> There is no such thing in any deals with China Tell that to Lithuania ( delisted as a country by China), Taiwan ( a "province"), Tibet ( invaded), Hong Kong ( taken over), ... Concerning debt trap. Are you aware that Africa is paying off debt for mostly Chinese workers/companies/contractors for those failed infrastructure projects? Bringing in almost no employment to Africans. https://thediplomat.com/2022/03/how-chinas-ambitious-belt-and-road-plans-for-east-africa-came-apart/ https://thediplomat.com/2022/03/how-chinas-ambitious-belt-an... The thing you're forgetting is that China doesn't care about the countries and their inability to pay them back. They are interested in how they are getting paid back. Eg. Ports in Sri Lanka, Zambia, Nigeria, ... https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/ https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la... Bridge of 3,1 b$ for the Maldives - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52743072 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52743072 Angola - https://theprint.in/world/angolan-model-viewed-as-early-example-of-chinese-debt-trap-tactics/1048009/ https://theprint.in/world/angolan-model-viewed-as-early-exam... I'm willing to wait to see how this all plays out and who is right here. Are you? > Angola still owes China more than USD 23 billion, mostly from oil-backed loans. With declining production, this means that most of Angola’s output is going to China, preventing Africa’s second-largest oil producer from selling its major source of income on the open market. PS. It isn't solely Africa, but also Australia and European countries ( mostly in the east ) already decided that it's better to not be in debt with China ( and they have gotten not pleasant suprises) https://www.dw.com/en/cracks-appear-in-chinas-new-silk-road/a-57388521 https://www.dw.com/en/cracks-appear-in-chinas-new-silk-road/... PS. Ukraine also had a deal with China, they were even under a nuclear umbrella of China ( lol) during the "one road one belt" project. We can all see how that "protection" turned out. https://www.wsj.com/articles/under-new-scrutiny-chinas-nuclear-pledge-to-ukraine-11647007200 https://www.wsj.com/articles/under-new-scrutiny-chinas-nucle... ----------------- On top of this, your "links" only name 1 infrastructure project: "the Mombasa railway"... Dare to do a sanity check? https://www.voanews.com/a/kenya-wants-to-renegotiate-loans-for-chinese-built-railway-/6796765.html https://www.voanews.com/a/kenya-wants-to-renegotiate-loans-f... > "It becomes impossible to be able to pay that loan by revenue that comes from the railways. And even in 50 years, it will not break even if you load the loans to the railways," Murkomen said. Let's dig a bit deeper in the country. https://www.wionews.com/world/kenya-discloses-loan-documents-of-chinese-built-railway-amid-looming-debt-crisis-532646 https://www.wionews.com/world/kenya-discloses-loan-documents... > any major dispute over the railway would be decided in Beijing https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-may-seize-kenyan-assets-amid-mounting-debts-report-3455850 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-may-seize-kenyan-asset... China is willing to give those countries loans to repay those Chinese loans. But they do have higher interests and shorter repay terms... Good luck.

unity1001 4y ago
> Tell that to Lithuania ( delisted as a country by China), Taiwan ( a "province"), Tibet ( invaded), Hong Kong ( taken over) Any country is free to trade with whomever they want. Nothing happens to Lithuania for being 'delisted'. Tibet has been historically part of China like Hong Kong. And the invasion of Tibet deposed an actual serfdom regime. How is Hong Kong, a CHINESE city being taken over by China after the LEASE that the English forced them out of that city, is an argument. NONE of these are any arguments for trade deals. If you go about making such arguments, the other side that you apparently support would come up far worse. So avoid going there. ... Voice of America is a CIA trumpet and showing it as an argument for anything is an insult to dozens of countries where it has been used as a tool for coups and regime change. Not surprisingly every country in the global south is thinking totally the opposite after so many coups that were organized and trumpeted in their country by the CIA via filth like Voice of America. You people's defense of the indefensible makes the case of China far stronger. Linking VoA as a source to someone whose country suffered multiple US backed coups. That does the trick, yeah. You totally persuaded me.
- NicoJuicy 4y ago
  Hong Kong - National Security Law ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/24/uk-net-migration-figures-record-ons https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/24/uk-net-migra... ) Delisted = immediate ban of any trade with China, since the country can't be found in software ( = trade ban) Either way, it's not my intent to pursuade you. I'll let you figure it out on your own. Which country?
  - unity1001 4y ago
    Yeah, everybody on the planet 'figured it out' on their own after 40 years of US neoliberal plunder, thank you very much.
    - NicoJuicy 4y ago
      Sure. Perhaps you should dig more into Russia, if you want to see countries actually destroyed. PS. Again, which country? :)

SlickNixon 4y ago

>You sign a deal to trade them X amount of minerals. The sharp end here is what happens if you don't come up with the minerals.

unity1001 4y ago
They stop giving you whatever you traded the minerals for. How is that even an argument. In what world you stop providing your end of a trade bargain and the other side keeps giving you what they were trading for. Sounds crazy.
- SlickNixon 4y ago
  What if they paid in advance?
  - unity1001 4y ago
    What if none of those nonsensical hypotheticals did not happen.
    - SlickNixon 4y ago
      I was referring of course to the hypothetical of the United States making deals to purchase minerals, paying in advance, then subjecting the countries in question to humiliating financial consequences when they can't deliver.
      - unity1001 4y ago
        There are many cases of the US literally walking back on its word or unilaterally canceling deals because it could. It even cancelled its sovereign debt that it had to other countries a few times in history. The countries used to take it because they had to. Which precisely why the global south now prefers China, Russia, Brazil, India and the entire new bloc around BRICS, SCO etc: They don't have to tolerate anything with China or Russia. When a deal is broken by a country, these two countries just stop doing business with that other country until some agreement is reached. Its simple business/trade. So much that China avoids even saying things that could be interpreted as commentaries on other countries' policies, the way to do things or their culture. Ending up in very dry press releases.

cuteboy19 4y ago

Both are true, both are traps. Eventually all the countries in extreme debt to China will be forced to vassalize. BRICs is dead, sorry. Two of these are nearly at war with each other every few months. We should be able to consider that one thing being bad does not negate another thing from being bad. It is true that the US has been the big bad for a while now, but two can play at that game, it seems

NicoJuicy 4y ago
BRICS future under China is similar to North Korea. Totally dependent on China...