3 ms·

Yes, I think saying something is $199/night when the minimum you can pay for it is $250/night is lying. Can you think of another word for that? It’s an untrue

Yes, I think saying something is $199/night when the minimum you can pay for it is $250/night is lying. Can you think of another word for that? It’s an untrue statement about the price, that they know is untrue. I just can’t think of another word to describe that other than “a lie”. If the hidden fees were optional, I could see it being a closer call. If I can uncheck the cleaning fee and actually get $199/night, then it’s not as much a lie. This is the budget airline model. A super super cheap flight, but if you want to put a bag in the overhead bin that’s an extra cost. I think there’s something somewhat deceptive about that practice, but I wouldn’t call it a lie. But, really, if they say a cost is $199/night when the minimum cost is $250/night and they know that to be the case, how can that be anything other than a lie?

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
According to your definition of lying/fraud, basically all of the following would count as fraud: 1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout. The sign in the aisle says "3.99" but the minimum you can pay for it is 3.99 x .08 or whatever, so according to your definition that's lying. 2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling, because those charges aren't calculated until checkout (usually because they are variable). Again, according to you, another instance of lying. 3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching. A place that charges $199/night but has a $100 cleaning fee may or may not be a better deal than a $250/night place with a $40 cleaning fee, depending on my length of stay. If I just lump that in with a nightly rate, and my dates are flexible, I lose information about which place may be the better deal. 4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees. The parking fees were clearly spelled out in the contract (but, again, only on checkout). But this truly is an optional fee - many customers would Uber or whatever to get to the rental without a car. What determined whether the customer thought it was "fraud" was their own personal expectations about what should be included, even if other customers didn't share those expectations. Furthermore, many/most of these sites that only show details of fees on checkout still say "plus fees" or "plus S/H" on search result pages. Is it still fraud if they tell you there are fees upfront but don't actually tell you what those fees are until checkout? In general, I just find it very distasteful when folks try to redefine words that have pretty straightforward meanings to meet their personal definition of the what they think the word should mean, especially for topics that have gray areas, and especially when there are other words that better encompass the idea that you're making a statement of opinion rather than fact. E.g. I think most people wouldn't mind you saying "Their marketing practices are deceptive", because most people would think there is some amount of opinion into what constitutes deception, but most people think of fraud as much more of a clear-and-dry instance of lying for financial gain.
- vkou 4y ago
  > 1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout Which is, of course, insane. There is no good reason for taxes to not be rolled into the price. What next? An 'employee wages' line item that gets added at checkout? Maybe a 'mall rental space' one? A 'shareholder dividend' one? > 2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling. Depending on where they ship, those are at least unknown until checkout. > 3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching. Rental availability is only known when you enter a date range. If you've entered a date range, there's no reason the fees can't be included in the price. There's nothing fraudulent about selling 5 nights for $180/night, versus 4 nights for $195/night, just like there's nothing fraudulent about charging more for 2x2L jugs of milk than for 1x4L jug. > 4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees. Unlike #1 and #3 (Sales tax, cleaning fees), parking fees really are optional.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

According to your definition of lying/fraud, basically all of the following would count as fraud: 1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout. The sign in the aisle says "3.99" but the minimum you can pay for it is 3.99 x .08 or whatever, so according to your definition that's lying. 2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling, because those charges aren't calculated until checkout (usually because they are variable). Again, according to you, another instance of lying. 3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching. A place that charges $199/night but has a $100 cleaning fee may or may not be a better deal than a $250/night place with a $40 cleaning fee, depending on my length of stay. If I just lump that in with a nightly rate, and my dates are flexible, I lose information about which place may be the better deal. 4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees. The parking fees were clearly spelled out in the contract (but, again, only on checkout). But this truly is an optional fee - many customers would Uber or whatever to get to the rental without a car. What determined whether the customer thought it was "fraud" was their own personal expectations about what should be included, even if other customers didn't share those expectations. Furthermore, many/most of these sites that only show details of fees on checkout still say "plus fees" or "plus S/H" on search result pages. Is it still fraud if they tell you there are fees upfront but don't actually tell you what those fees are until checkout? In general, I just find it very distasteful when folks try to redefine words that have pretty straightforward meanings to meet their personal definition of the what they think the word should mean, especially for topics that have gray areas, and especially when there are other words that better encompass the idea that you're making a statement of opinion rather than fact. E.g. I think most people wouldn't mind you saying "Their marketing practices are deceptive", because most people would think there is some amount of opinion into what constitutes deception, but most people think of fraud as much more of a clear-and-dry instance of lying for financial gain.

vkou 4y ago
> 1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout Which is, of course, insane. There is no good reason for taxes to not be rolled into the price. What next? An 'employee wages' line item that gets added at checkout? Maybe a 'mall rental space' one? A 'shareholder dividend' one? > 2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling. Depending on where they ship, those are at least unknown until checkout. > 3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching. Rental availability is only known when you enter a date range. If you've entered a date range, there's no reason the fees can't be included in the price. There's nothing fraudulent about selling 5 nights for $180/night, versus 4 nights for $195/night, just like there's nothing fraudulent about charging more for 2x2L jugs of milk than for 1x4L jug. > 4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees. Unlike #1 and #3 (Sales tax, cleaning fees), parking fees really are optional.