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It's good to see real societal pushback against this kind of insanity, and I hope it spreads. A fun fact I remembered this morning - even in 1984, Kipling is

It's good to see real societal pushback against this kind of insanity, and I hope it spreads. A fun fact I remembered this morning - even in 1984, Kipling is allowed to remain in party sanctioned literature (albeit altered) I have been able to recall one possible ... indiscretion ... We were producing a definitive edition of the poems of Kipling. I allowed "God" to remain at the end of a line. This is Winston's colleague Ampleforth speculating as to why he was arrested. Orwell was an optimist as they say...

skinnymuch 4y ago
I wonder how Orwell would feel about Rishi Sunak. I’m sure a socialist bordering on anarchist who fought against the right wing in Spain’s civil war would think anything positive of UK’s current govt. Doubt he would want his work associated with what right wingers do.
- tonfreed 4y ago
  He was also highly critical of the Soviets. I doubt he'd have a problem with agreeing on something with the other side of the aisle. IngSoc was even a socialist party, he was perfectly aware of the authoritarian streak in his own ideology. Hell, in Road to Wigan Pier he talked about how he understood why a lot of the people oppose socialism, even though he thought it'd be a no brainer to support it. He wasn't one of the poorly read, middling IQ graduates yelling about socialism we see out in force today.
  - dTal 4y ago
    >IngSoc was even a socialist party, he was perfectly aware of the authoritarian streak in his own ideology. A nitpick here - Orwell didn't have static views. The Orwell who fought in the Spanish civil war was not the same Orwell as the one who wrote 1984 - 1984 reflected his disillusionment with the ideology.
    - skinnymuch 4y ago
      No it didn't. Orwell was always a socialist. He was a flawed leftie, but he was always a staunch leftist. 1984 was a mix of his problems with the Soviets and capitalism and right wing ideology. People shouldn't white wash Orwell.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    > He was also highly critical of the Soviets. I doubt he'd have a problem with agreeing on something with the other side of the aisle. Orwell probably would have a problem agreeing with something on the other side of the aisle. The logic doesn't follow. Lots of people are highly critical of the Soviets. No one has to be a socialist and support the Soviets. Orwell was always a socialist. 1984 was a mix of his problems with the Soviets and capitalism and right wing ideology. People shouldn't white wash Orwell. > Hell, in Road to Wigan Pier he talked about how he understood why a lot of the people oppose socialism, even though he thought it'd be a no brainer to support it. He wasn't one of the poorly read, middling IQ graduates yelling about socialism we see out in force today. People can say all sorts of stuff. It doesn't change what he was for and what his writing is for. I'd like to see an example of these socialists you're talking about. Do you have some? I've personally not seen it. Being a socialist is harder than being a capitalist. I have to educate myself vs yelling about stuff and being okay with the status quo (relatively speaking). For an example of how much more educated socialists have to be, see extremely popular left-wing commentator https://www.twitch.tv/hasanabi https://www.twitch.tv/hasanabi live 2-8 pm EST, 7 days a week. Typical political shows in the center or right (99% of media) are not as in-depth, do not critique capitalism, are not as entertaining, and the hosts don't have a fraction of the political knowledge.
- version_five 4y ago
  A lot of historical (fictional) criticism of the Right has been criticism of authoritarianism rather than conservatism per se, because the extant or expected instances of authoritarianism were on the right. V for Vendetta is a great example. To a large extent, it's probably more about the right (however you want to define it) being the historical establishment. In 2002, V for Vendetta made a lot of sense. With the left as the current establishment and vector for authoritarianism, the same criticisms apply to them. So I don't think it's really helpful to get caught up in the political alignment, it's more about where the power is.
  - fineIllregister 4y ago
    > With the left as the current establishment... The conservative party has controlled the UK government for 12 years now.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    Youre doing revisionist history. Orwell was a socialist. He hated fascism but he hated capitalism too. He was a far left person. A flawed person but nonetheless his POV was that. That includes conservatism in a huge way. Conservatives are the antithesis to the left. > So I don't think it's really helpful to get caught up in the political alignment, it's more about where the power is. This is what many people on the right say to obfuscate from being something huge figures in history were vehemently against. No, not just power.

skinnymuch 4y ago

I wonder how Orwell would feel about Rishi Sunak. I’m sure a socialist bordering on anarchist who fought against the right wing in Spain’s civil war would think anything positive of UK’s current govt. Doubt he would want his work associated with what right wingers do.

tonfreed 4y ago
He was also highly critical of the Soviets. I doubt he'd have a problem with agreeing on something with the other side of the aisle. IngSoc was even a socialist party, he was perfectly aware of the authoritarian streak in his own ideology. Hell, in Road to Wigan Pier he talked about how he understood why a lot of the people oppose socialism, even though he thought it'd be a no brainer to support it. He wasn't one of the poorly read, middling IQ graduates yelling about socialism we see out in force today.
- dTal 4y ago
  >IngSoc was even a socialist party, he was perfectly aware of the authoritarian streak in his own ideology. A nitpick here - Orwell didn't have static views. The Orwell who fought in the Spanish civil war was not the same Orwell as the one who wrote 1984 - 1984 reflected his disillusionment with the ideology.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    No it didn't. Orwell was always a socialist. He was a flawed leftie, but he was always a staunch leftist. 1984 was a mix of his problems with the Soviets and capitalism and right wing ideology. People shouldn't white wash Orwell.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  > He was also highly critical of the Soviets. I doubt he'd have a problem with agreeing on something with the other side of the aisle. Orwell probably would have a problem agreeing with something on the other side of the aisle. The logic doesn't follow. Lots of people are highly critical of the Soviets. No one has to be a socialist and support the Soviets. Orwell was always a socialist. 1984 was a mix of his problems with the Soviets and capitalism and right wing ideology. People shouldn't white wash Orwell. > Hell, in Road to Wigan Pier he talked about how he understood why a lot of the people oppose socialism, even though he thought it'd be a no brainer to support it. He wasn't one of the poorly read, middling IQ graduates yelling about socialism we see out in force today. People can say all sorts of stuff. It doesn't change what he was for and what his writing is for. I'd like to see an example of these socialists you're talking about. Do you have some? I've personally not seen it. Being a socialist is harder than being a capitalist. I have to educate myself vs yelling about stuff and being okay with the status quo (relatively speaking). For an example of how much more educated socialists have to be, see extremely popular left-wing commentator https://www.twitch.tv/hasanabi https://www.twitch.tv/hasanabi live 2-8 pm EST, 7 days a week. Typical political shows in the center or right (99% of media) are not as in-depth, do not critique capitalism, are not as entertaining, and the hosts don't have a fraction of the political knowledge.
version_five 4y ago
A lot of historical (fictional) criticism of the Right has been criticism of authoritarianism rather than conservatism per se, because the extant or expected instances of authoritarianism were on the right. V for Vendetta is a great example. To a large extent, it's probably more about the right (however you want to define it) being the historical establishment. In 2002, V for Vendetta made a lot of sense. With the left as the current establishment and vector for authoritarianism, the same criticisms apply to them. So I don't think it's really helpful to get caught up in the political alignment, it's more about where the power is.
- fineIllregister 4y ago
  > With the left as the current establishment... The conservative party has controlled the UK government for 12 years now.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Youre doing revisionist history. Orwell was a socialist. He hated fascism but he hated capitalism too. He was a far left person. A flawed person but nonetheless his POV was that. That includes conservatism in a huge way. Conservatives are the antithesis to the left. > So I don't think it's really helpful to get caught up in the political alignment, it's more about where the power is. This is what many people on the right say to obfuscate from being something huge figures in history were vehemently against. No, not just power.