6 ms·

>This is also a case where consumers say they want one thing, but their behavior is a different matter. For example, pretty much everyone says they prefer the f

by slg 4y ago

>This is also a case where consumers say they want one thing, but their behavior is a different matter. For example, pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkout. This seems to be very misguided logic to me. I can also trick people with fraud but that doesn't mean the victims are indifferent to the fraud. It being effective doesn't mean people like it. Consumers can still hate this hidden fee approach even, and perhaps especially, because it is effective.

spiffytech 4y ago
It doesn't need to be fraud. A common trick in designing restaurant menus is to make it harder to scan the price list, because people buy the food they prefer when price is one of many considerations rather than prominently highlighted. > Centred Justification > When prices are printed in neat, right-justified columns, everyone glances down the line to compare prices. Menu consultants recommend a centred justification that leaves the prices scattered. This gently encourages the diner to order what she wants, not pick the cheapest price. Another way of minimising attention to cost? Omit the pound signs. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/the-hidden-psychology-of-menu-design https://www.wired.co.uk/article/the-hidden-psychology-of-men...
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  What's weird, at least in the US, is that the higher-end the joint, the easier it is to shop by price, generally. Tax-inclusive, whole-dollar-value (no "$7.99" crap, it's just "8"), all-prices-aligned menus are more common as one heads up-scale.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    [dead]
  - meltedcapacitor 4y ago
    Makes sense: at the high end of the market, patrons need to be able to identify and get the most expensive option to impress their date/mates, and understandably restaurants want to be helpful. (See "Veblen goods".)
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Never seen the impressing part... usually if you want to eat cheap, you go somewhere cheap, if you want something more expensive, you're prepared to pay more, but you don't want to be surprised after. So, noone who goes to a place like this cares if one soup is $12 and the other $14 and then pick the cheaper one... but if you have a $79 bottle of wine on the menu and a $7900 bottle of wine on the menu, it's in the interest of the restaurant to have the patrons know clearly that the expensive bottle is really really expensive, and having deceptive pricing there ("$7.9 per 0.7ml") only causes problems when the check arrives.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        "Sir, the wine is clearly marked as 0.0000000472c per cubic mile. How did you not see this coming?"
        zxcvbn4038 4y ago
        That happened to me in Italy. I knew I was in trouble when the chef came out to shake my hand. I did not realize the steak was priced per ounce, was the biggest steak I’d even seen, ended up costing me ~$400.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        > I knew I was in trouble when the chef came out to shake my hand. That is hilariously brutal. Oh no!
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        This is also how shitty clubs scam tourists in many areas... There are bouncers infront of the clubs, "come on, come on, free welcome drink", tourists (mostly western european middle aged men) go inside, a "random, totally not hired by the club" hot girl or two join them, seemingly interested where they are from, flirt a bit, order a glass of wine, then leave.. and the tourists are left with 500eur+ bill for the wine. Although, bouncers have to distinguish eg. solo german men from eg. balkan construction workers, because the scam is somewhat less effective on those.
  - balderdash 4y ago
    Also there seems to be a more normal distribution of last digit prices as well e.g. main courses are $x2, $x1, $x6, $x8, $x5, $x4,etc.
arrosenberg 4y ago
This is exactly right. It's not hard to get better A/B results by using dark patterns and consumers will still rightfully hate it.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I don't think fraud is a good analogy - the whole point with fraud is that you are getting something different after you agreed to it, when it's too late to back out. Going back to the airline example, most people say they hate getting nickel and dimed on things like paying to pick a seat up front or paying even for the first carry-on, but they will still pick one flight over another if the base rate is $5 cheaper. And in that case there is nothing untoward, fraudulent or "dark pattern" about what the airline is doing, as they are just allowing people to only pay for the services they want. But it's still a clear case of consumers saying they want one thing, but by their actions they are incentivizing airlines to do something else. But regardless of the underlying reason, I still agree that the best solution is for government to provide "ground rules" that most people agree are better. After all, most consumers would probably prefer cheaper products even if manufacturers used child labor or had no pollution controls, but it's the government's role to ensure these longer term societal goals aren't completely ignored in pursuit of the cheapest price.
- californical 4y ago
  I know I’m not an outlier, but this is why I’ve historically stuck with Delta as an airline. They’re not perfect either, but they give you the main things you’d need for a flight in the base price, and are generally pretty flexible and reasonable with things like bag size. Unless they’re way more expensive, I’ll still pick them for a slightly higher price over the others, because I know that I’ll get a good experience and it’ll be way less stressful. They also always have staff available in the airport when things go wrong. Frontier has been doing this thing where they make everyone put their backpack into the little measuring box so they have a chance to charge you $100 for being an inch oversized. They haven’t gotten me on that personally, but I’ve sworn off of flying with them entirely because it’s like they want you to suffer. I have 40 other complaints about them but I’ll save it for now
  - novok 4y ago
    Why stick with delta vs other majors, like united, southwest or american airlines? Frontier acting like that just seems consummate with their low price tier like spirit.
fortituded0002 4y ago
> pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion That may be true, but those are measuring two separate things - customer desires and customer behavior. Just because it results in more sales doesn't actually mean the customer still wants that. I know I didn't when I rented a car recently but I was pretty much stuck when picking up the car at the airport. I would have definitely found another solution if I knew upfront how much the real cost was going to be.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

by slg 4y ago

spiffytech 4y ago

It doesn't need to be fraud. A common trick in designing restaurant menus is to make it harder to scan the price list, because people buy the food they prefer when price is one of many considerations rather than prominently highlighted. > Centred Justification > When prices are printed in neat, right-justified columns, everyone glances down the line to compare prices. Menu consultants recommend a centred justification that leaves the prices scattered. This gently encourages the diner to order what she wants, not pick the cheapest price. Another way of minimising attention to cost? Omit the pound signs. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/the-hidden-psychology-of-menu-design https://www.wired.co.uk/article/the-hidden-psychology-of-men...

yamtaddle 4y ago
What's weird, at least in the US, is that the higher-end the joint, the easier it is to shop by price, generally. Tax-inclusive, whole-dollar-value (no "$7.99" crap, it's just "8"), all-prices-aligned menus are more common as one heads up-scale.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  [dead]
- meltedcapacitor 4y ago
  Makes sense: at the high end of the market, patrons need to be able to identify and get the most expensive option to impress their date/mates, and understandably restaurants want to be helpful. (See "Veblen goods".)
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Never seen the impressing part... usually if you want to eat cheap, you go somewhere cheap, if you want something more expensive, you're prepared to pay more, but you don't want to be surprised after. So, noone who goes to a place like this cares if one soup is $12 and the other $14 and then pick the cheaper one... but if you have a $79 bottle of wine on the menu and a $7900 bottle of wine on the menu, it's in the interest of the restaurant to have the patrons know clearly that the expensive bottle is really really expensive, and having deceptive pricing there ("$7.9 per 0.7ml") only causes problems when the check arrives.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      "Sir, the wine is clearly marked as 0.0000000472c per cubic mile. How did you not see this coming?"
      - zxcvbn4038 4y ago
        That happened to me in Italy. I knew I was in trouble when the chef came out to shake my hand. I did not realize the steak was priced per ounce, was the biggest steak I’d even seen, ended up costing me ~$400.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        > I knew I was in trouble when the chef came out to shake my hand. That is hilariously brutal. Oh no!
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        This is also how shitty clubs scam tourists in many areas... There are bouncers infront of the clubs, "come on, come on, free welcome drink", tourists (mostly western european middle aged men) go inside, a "random, totally not hired by the club" hot girl or two join them, seemingly interested where they are from, flirt a bit, order a glass of wine, then leave.. and the tourists are left with 500eur+ bill for the wine. Although, bouncers have to distinguish eg. solo german men from eg. balkan construction workers, because the scam is somewhat less effective on those.
- balderdash 4y ago
  Also there seems to be a more normal distribution of last digit prices as well e.g. main courses are $x2, $x1, $x6, $x8, $x5, $x4,etc.

arrosenberg 4y ago

This is exactly right. It's not hard to get better A/B results by using dark patterns and consumers will still rightfully hate it.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

I don't think fraud is a good analogy - the whole point with fraud is that you are getting something different after you agreed to it, when it's too late to back out. Going back to the airline example, most people say they hate getting nickel and dimed on things like paying to pick a seat up front or paying even for the first carry-on, but they will still pick one flight over another if the base rate is $5 cheaper. And in that case there is nothing untoward, fraudulent or "dark pattern" about what the airline is doing, as they are just allowing people to only pay for the services they want. But it's still a clear case of consumers saying they want one thing, but by their actions they are incentivizing airlines to do something else. But regardless of the underlying reason, I still agree that the best solution is for government to provide "ground rules" that most people agree are better. After all, most consumers would probably prefer cheaper products even if manufacturers used child labor or had no pollution controls, but it's the government's role to ensure these longer term societal goals aren't completely ignored in pursuit of the cheapest price.

californical 4y ago
I know I’m not an outlier, but this is why I’ve historically stuck with Delta as an airline. They’re not perfect either, but they give you the main things you’d need for a flight in the base price, and are generally pretty flexible and reasonable with things like bag size. Unless they’re way more expensive, I’ll still pick them for a slightly higher price over the others, because I know that I’ll get a good experience and it’ll be way less stressful. They also always have staff available in the airport when things go wrong. Frontier has been doing this thing where they make everyone put their backpack into the little measuring box so they have a chance to charge you $100 for being an inch oversized. They haven’t gotten me on that personally, but I’ve sworn off of flying with them entirely because it’s like they want you to suffer. I have 40 other complaints about them but I’ll save it for now
- novok 4y ago
  Why stick with delta vs other majors, like united, southwest or american airlines? Frontier acting like that just seems consummate with their low price tier like spirit.

fortituded0002 4y ago

> pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion That may be true, but those are measuring two separate things - customer desires and customer behavior. Just because it results in more sales doesn't actually mean the customer still wants that. I know I didn't when I rented a car recently but I was pretty much stuck when picking up the car at the airport. I would have definitely found another solution if I knew upfront how much the real cost was going to be.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]