4 ms·

Like quite a lot of guilds and unions, the actor's guild started out by defending workers rights against a restrictive system (in that case, the Hollywood studi

Like quite a lot of guilds and unions, the actor's guild started out by defending workers rights against a restrictive system (in that case, the Hollywood studio system) but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. We really, really don't want that in tech. Tech is one of the few segments of the economy where skill trumps credentials and connections for people entering the field. As a result, tech benefits from a lot of talent that would be ignored by more traditional methods of filtering candidates. And what would tech workers gain? Unions don't stop layoffs -- look at the past few decades in the auto industry for proof. Unions would also negotiate standard pay packages that might be attractive to low performers, but would hold high performers back. Plus, severance packages are already legally mandated for layoffs in the places where the majority of tech workers live.

gamblor956 4y ago
but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. SAG does not prohibit non-union actors in SAG-covered productions. In fact, appearing in a SAG-covered production is how one qualifies for membership into SAG. SAG sets minimum thresholds for pay, benefits, and rights. Actors are free to negotiate better packages if they have the leverage for it. Most don't, which is why the actor-waiter meme is a thing for people hoping to get cast into a SAG-covered role. As someone who has appeared as a background actor in a SAG-covered production: SAG minimums are significantly higher than non-SAG pay, at every level.
- twblalock 4y ago
  > This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. I have been a member of several unions and I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree if you want, but I am speaking from real life experience.
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    I am speaking from a position of legal expertise about how Hollywood unions function. I have been part of the legal counsel to several Hollywood guilds/unions, and have participated in the production of multiple Hollywood and non-Hollywood productions. Like you, I was also a member of a non-Hollywood union (while I was in the public sector), though that experience is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    - quartesixte 4y ago
      What you see from the legal perspective vs the actual on-the-ground wheeling, dealing, favor-trading, social circle maintaining, networking actions to even get onto a union production as a non-union worker can be quite a big spread. The intended legal requirement can be very different from the way it’s practiced on the ground. My own attempts to break-in + friends’ experiences shows a clear pattern: the guilds gatekeep, almost arbitrarily, and creates environments primed for abuse. Perhaps the legal, corporate side of the guilds should realign with the reality on the ground and change this. That is, if this is an undesirable state of affairs.
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        You actually have it backwards. Unionized productions aren't limited to unionized crew; in fact working on unionized productions is how you qualify to become a union member. OTOH, union members are generally prohibited from working on non-union productions. IOW, it's the opposite of gate-keeping. It sounds like you and your friends tried to get hired as crew onto jobs for which you have no experience, because if you guys did have the experience you would already be union members and you would be swamped with work or offers. (The thresholds are pretty low. I'm one production away from being a member of several unions and I'm trying very hard to avoid that since it would limit my ability to work on non-union productions). Most jobs don't hire people without experience without someone vouching for them. Why would you think that Hollywood would be different? They don't know you from Adam and from their point of view there are millions of other people just like you that are willing to put in the time and effort to start at the bottom instead of trying to skip a few rungs. If you want to work in film, start at the bottom (i.e., meaning as an assistant or an extra) or work non-unionized productions (generally, low-budget or student films).
dajtxx 4y ago
Skill trumping credentials and connections has not been my experience in a 35 year career. The gatekeeping by recruiters and HR departments is extreme - until I got my CS degree a couple of years ago I could not get interviews anywhere, despite the fact I'd never been sacked from a job and was always one of the best coders in my teams with the broadest range of experience. I lucked out many years ago on getting an interesting job but that job went through a series of acquisitions and after a while I kept trying to get out but couldn't get interviewed anywhere. Then I finally get a degree and get a job made with a contact while doing that and all of a sudden a few years later I can at least get to the first round of interviews. Software development is in no way a meritocracy, and companies see us as interchangeable components with very little intrinsic value as SV workers are finding out in droves. Software developers are essentially the blue collar workers of the 21st century. We are the modern fitters and turners. Highly skilled in some cases, but not valued.
- junofan 4y ago
  I would not call a degree requirement extreme gatekeeping.
  - mxkopy 4y ago
    When your hire can prove your algorithm runs in O(1) amortized time but has trouble setting up ssh and always commits to master, and you turn down a candidate who got stumped on rederiving Bellman-Ford but maintains several projects, I'd say that's gatekeeping
    - jefftk 4y ago
      dajtxx claimed 'extreme' gatekeeping while describing some employers having either a degree requirement or higher standards for employees without degrees. In the US, to the extent that this is 'extreme' it's in the 'less gatekeeping' direction. (I agree that there's some gatekeeping, and I'd rather see the industry pay less attention to degrees.)
- rnk 4y ago
  I humbly disagree with some aspects of your comment. I think software engineers are highly paid, almost the lowest paid devs in the country are decently paid. Companies are just looking for a simple filter and a degree is an easy one. With my degree I actually did learn theory and did learn to program in several languages and did learn how to work in groups. But that's not universally true of course. And there's plenty of self-taught people. I have known a few people who got started without a degree as engineers doing software and it was really hard until they had an extensive resume. After they have a resume it doesn't matter. I just see it as a lazy, easy filter. The reason I don't see us as fitters and turners is because there's so much demand for our resources and you can become wealthy. My wife has a master's degree in library science and this isn't open to her. She's national board certified and I probably started out at more than she'll ever make.

gamblor956 4y ago

but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. SAG does not prohibit non-union actors in SAG-covered productions. In fact, appearing in a SAG-covered production is how one qualifies for membership into SAG. SAG sets minimum thresholds for pay, benefits, and rights. Actors are free to negotiate better packages if they have the leverage for it. Most don't, which is why the actor-waiter meme is a thing for people hoping to get cast into a SAG-covered role. As someone who has appeared as a background actor in a SAG-covered production: SAG minimums are significantly higher than non-SAG pay, at every level.

twblalock 4y ago
> This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. I have been a member of several unions and I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree if you want, but I am speaking from real life experience.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  I am speaking from a position of legal expertise about how Hollywood unions function. I have been part of the legal counsel to several Hollywood guilds/unions, and have participated in the production of multiple Hollywood and non-Hollywood productions. Like you, I was also a member of a non-Hollywood union (while I was in the public sector), though that experience is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
  - quartesixte 4y ago
    What you see from the legal perspective vs the actual on-the-ground wheeling, dealing, favor-trading, social circle maintaining, networking actions to even get onto a union production as a non-union worker can be quite a big spread. The intended legal requirement can be very different from the way it’s practiced on the ground. My own attempts to break-in + friends’ experiences shows a clear pattern: the guilds gatekeep, almost arbitrarily, and creates environments primed for abuse. Perhaps the legal, corporate side of the guilds should realign with the reality on the ground and change this. That is, if this is an undesirable state of affairs.
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      You actually have it backwards. Unionized productions aren't limited to unionized crew; in fact working on unionized productions is how you qualify to become a union member. OTOH, union members are generally prohibited from working on non-union productions. IOW, it's the opposite of gate-keeping. It sounds like you and your friends tried to get hired as crew onto jobs for which you have no experience, because if you guys did have the experience you would already be union members and you would be swamped with work or offers. (The thresholds are pretty low. I'm one production away from being a member of several unions and I'm trying very hard to avoid that since it would limit my ability to work on non-union productions). Most jobs don't hire people without experience without someone vouching for them. Why would you think that Hollywood would be different? They don't know you from Adam and from their point of view there are millions of other people just like you that are willing to put in the time and effort to start at the bottom instead of trying to skip a few rungs. If you want to work in film, start at the bottom (i.e., meaning as an assistant or an extra) or work non-unionized productions (generally, low-budget or student films).

dajtxx 4y ago

Skill trumping credentials and connections has not been my experience in a 35 year career. The gatekeeping by recruiters and HR departments is extreme - until I got my CS degree a couple of years ago I could not get interviews anywhere, despite the fact I'd never been sacked from a job and was always one of the best coders in my teams with the broadest range of experience. I lucked out many years ago on getting an interesting job but that job went through a series of acquisitions and after a while I kept trying to get out but couldn't get interviewed anywhere. Then I finally get a degree and get a job made with a contact while doing that and all of a sudden a few years later I can at least get to the first round of interviews. Software development is in no way a meritocracy, and companies see us as interchangeable components with very little intrinsic value as SV workers are finding out in droves. Software developers are essentially the blue collar workers of the 21st century. We are the modern fitters and turners. Highly skilled in some cases, but not valued.

junofan 4y ago
I would not call a degree requirement extreme gatekeeping.
- mxkopy 4y ago
  When your hire can prove your algorithm runs in O(1) amortized time but has trouble setting up ssh and always commits to master, and you turn down a candidate who got stumped on rederiving Bellman-Ford but maintains several projects, I'd say that's gatekeeping
  - jefftk 4y ago
    dajtxx claimed 'extreme' gatekeeping while describing some employers having either a degree requirement or higher standards for employees without degrees. In the US, to the extent that this is 'extreme' it's in the 'less gatekeeping' direction. (I agree that there's some gatekeeping, and I'd rather see the industry pay less attention to degrees.)
rnk 4y ago
I humbly disagree with some aspects of your comment. I think software engineers are highly paid, almost the lowest paid devs in the country are decently paid. Companies are just looking for a simple filter and a degree is an easy one. With my degree I actually did learn theory and did learn to program in several languages and did learn how to work in groups. But that's not universally true of course. And there's plenty of self-taught people. I have known a few people who got started without a degree as engineers doing software and it was really hard until they had an extensive resume. After they have a resume it doesn't matter. I just see it as a lazy, easy filter. The reason I don't see us as fitters and turners is because there's so much demand for our resources and you can become wealthy. My wife has a master's degree in library science and this isn't open to her. She's national board certified and I probably started out at more than she'll ever make.