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Some of the best engineers I've ever worked don't even have a bachelor's degree. These autodidacts will suffer greatly if the wrong kind of "software guild" gai

Some of the best engineers I've ever worked don't even have a bachelor's degree. These autodidacts will suffer greatly if the wrong kind of "software guild" gains control over licensing tech employees.

Apocryphon 4y ago
Not really, if the guild founders include self-taught coders then they will make provisions for their fellows.
asdff 4y ago
SAG doesn't require a degree in screen acting. It's a little convoluted but they basically operate mainly on proof of work. That sort of system would probably give self taught engineers who spent their years from 18-22 doing actual work a huge leg up compared to those who were in school during that time doing no work on any projects for any company.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Those people have a huge leg up right now in large swaths of the industry anyway. The issue with the "proof of work" standard is it sets up a difficult conundrum. You need to work to join the guild, and you need to be a guild member to get most work.
  - asdff 4y ago
    You can get hired for guild work as a non guild member, usually you join the guild after though.
    - quartesixte 4y ago
      And that is the main gatekeeping mechanism that keeps so many talented young writers, actors, cinematographers, etc. out of the game or working for pennies on the dollar as assistants. It’s great when you’re in but if you don’t have the connections to get in you can find yourself on the outs for years. If a SWE guild can find a way to eliminate the nepotism and create a meritocratic way to get into a guild…
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      Sure, it's obviously possible. If it weren't there would never be new actors on the scene. But the number of times I've heard directors and such tell stories about how they wrote a line for a non-speaking part as a favor to the actor in the role, solely to allow them to get their SAG card, is disturbing. It's indicative of a high degree of gatekeeping.
      - asdff 4y ago
        The sag rules have changed in recent years to be a lot simpler.
- Aunche 4y ago
  >It's a little convoluted but they basically operate mainly on proof of work. It's mainly leveraging cartel power rather than proof of work. Even if you have a lot of experience acting in non-union productions, you're still ineligible from joining SAG. To be clear, I don't think this is a bad thing for SAG because the number of aspiring actors far exceeds demand, so SAG increase wages without causing the most of negative effects with cartels, but I don't think this is the same for tech.
- Panzer04 4y ago
  You don't think school has any value? There's a reason we have higher education - Work-based learning is somewhat prone to leaving significant gaps in a person's knowledge. Not to say working has no value, but neither does schooling have no value.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    It has approximately zero value for doing the job of software development vs. equivalent time spent with actual work experience. It has value otherwise, but I'm really not concerned about that when hiring my future coworkers. There are other ways to acquire the skills you learn in college. This credentialist bias of yours is exactly what I'm arguing against. Guilds tend to promote this mindset, when they're not too busy promoting nepotism.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    School is a good tool to gain a comprehensive education. It is not the only tool to gain a comprehensive education, and it is not effective for everybody.

Apocryphon 4y ago

Not really, if the guild founders include self-taught coders then they will make provisions for their fellows.

asdff 4y ago

SAG doesn't require a degree in screen acting. It's a little convoluted but they basically operate mainly on proof of work. That sort of system would probably give self taught engineers who spent their years from 18-22 doing actual work a huge leg up compared to those who were in school during that time doing no work on any projects for any company.

JohnFen 4y ago
Those people have a huge leg up right now in large swaths of the industry anyway. The issue with the "proof of work" standard is it sets up a difficult conundrum. You need to work to join the guild, and you need to be a guild member to get most work.
- asdff 4y ago
  You can get hired for guild work as a non guild member, usually you join the guild after though.
  - quartesixte 4y ago
    And that is the main gatekeeping mechanism that keeps so many talented young writers, actors, cinematographers, etc. out of the game or working for pennies on the dollar as assistants. It’s great when you’re in but if you don’t have the connections to get in you can find yourself on the outs for years. If a SWE guild can find a way to eliminate the nepotism and create a meritocratic way to get into a guild…
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    Sure, it's obviously possible. If it weren't there would never be new actors on the scene. But the number of times I've heard directors and such tell stories about how they wrote a line for a non-speaking part as a favor to the actor in the role, solely to allow them to get their SAG card, is disturbing. It's indicative of a high degree of gatekeeping.
    - asdff 4y ago
      The sag rules have changed in recent years to be a lot simpler.
Aunche 4y ago
>It's a little convoluted but they basically operate mainly on proof of work. It's mainly leveraging cartel power rather than proof of work. Even if you have a lot of experience acting in non-union productions, you're still ineligible from joining SAG. To be clear, I don't think this is a bad thing for SAG because the number of aspiring actors far exceeds demand, so SAG increase wages without causing the most of negative effects with cartels, but I don't think this is the same for tech.
Panzer04 4y ago
You don't think school has any value? There's a reason we have higher education - Work-based learning is somewhat prone to leaving significant gaps in a person's knowledge. Not to say working has no value, but neither does schooling have no value.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  It has approximately zero value for doing the job of software development vs. equivalent time spent with actual work experience. It has value otherwise, but I'm really not concerned about that when hiring my future coworkers. There are other ways to acquire the skills you learn in college. This credentialist bias of yours is exactly what I'm arguing against. Guilds tend to promote this mindset, when they're not too busy promoting nepotism.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  School is a good tool to gain a comprehensive education. It is not the only tool to gain a comprehensive education, and it is not effective for everybody.