7 ms·

The US cannot turn against immigration, period. "Afford" doesn't enter into it. The Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (

The US cannot turn against immigration, period. "Afford" doesn't enter into it. The Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. Indians likewise lobby for more immigration from India. That's no surprise - while only 15% of Whites see their race as very or extremely important to their identity, that number is 56% for Asians, 59% for Hispanics, and 74% for Blacks [1]. The simple reality is Whites will become a minority [2] in what was an 84% White country as recently as 1970 [3]. Will they be treated with gratitude for sharing their country, and so can afford to act colorblind, forsaking racial solidarity? Is gratitude what they're being shown now? Or will that leave them as individualists in a country dominated by inter-group competition, as current polls suggest? [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/04/09/race-in-america-2019/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/04/09/race-in... [2] It’s official: Minority babies are the majority among the nation’s infants, but only just - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/23/its-official-minority-babies-are-the-majority-among-the-nations-infants-but-only-just/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/23/its-officia... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...

Der_Einzige 4y ago
Latino immigrants increased support for trump in 2020 vs 2016. Latinos are dropping catholicism and embracing evangelical protestantism (I've witnessed this with Latinos in my own life). There is a strong right wing shift happening right now among Latinos including first gen immigrants. Don't expect large amounts of immigrant solidarity from Latinos going forward. I think trump got slightly upwards of 40% of the Latino vote...
digianarchist 4y ago
America would already be a white minority nation had it not been for the racial bias towards Whites of previous immigration policies. I also think you can’t group Latinos as a voting bloc that swings one way on party or policy. Sure Latinos in Nevada lean blue and are more liberal but in Florida they are conservative and are voting Republican. Overall though I disagree with the framing. Why is a white minority a bad thing? Canada’s response to such demographic shifts is much more measured. We’re building a country together.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > Why is a white minority a bad thing? I addressed this question: "Or will that leave them as individualists in a country dominated by inter-group competition, as current polls suggest?" Of course this is not guaranteed - once Whites are a minority (in the US, not just globally), other races in the US may also turn away from in-group preference, and the culture might turn away from harping on white privilege all the time. It's just that that hasn't happened yet.
  - DuskStar 4y ago
    The reverse is also plausible, and whites could begin to show in-group preference again.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mikem170 4y ago
    > and the culture might turn away from harping on white privilege all the time I agree this is interesting to watch. Minorities have more voice in the culture as the demographics change, and some in the majority want to push back. Identify politics is toxic, no matter where it comes from. Too many media organizations and politicians (on both sides of the aisle) want to take advantage of people's fears.
  - apple10 4y ago
    [dead]
- richjdsmith 4y ago
  Canada currently feels more divided today than anytime in my life. I am not sure it is the best option to point at. I am not sure the source, however the data is starting to show that the housing issue is in fact a direct result of more immigration, so we may see a significant shift towards less immigration in the coming years.
  - digianarchist 4y ago
Georgelemental 4y ago
> The Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. This is not universally true. While many Latinos do indeed vote this way, others resent having to compete for jobs and social services with more recent arrivals. Geography and background play a major role
- davidf18 4y ago
  [dead]
- notch898a 4y ago
  I've lived in Latino dominated neighborhoods for years. At least the ones I've lived in they almost out-white the modern day progressive whites. They like god, guns, the bible, and conservative family values. I expect more "traditional" values to be preserved from the latinos I am surrounded by than I would in most white dominated places. Overall I have very little concerns the latinos around me are going to do much moving and shaking against the status quo.
lahvak 4y ago
1. I have a problem with "their country". What makes this any country any more "their" than anybody else's? 2. Does their past and often even current behavior towards other immigrants deserve any gratitude?
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  Is Ecuador a country for Ecuadorians? If millions of white people moved to Ecuador, refused to learn Spanish, and said "this is no more your country than ours" and so forth, would you object to it?
  - lahvak 4y ago
    Probably not, as long as they did not terrorize local population and act like they are somehow better.
- junofan 4y ago
  A country is a nation with a government. The US’s government is specified in the Constitution. The Constitution said only white men had a say. White men decided to change the Constitution to let others participate.
  - lahvak 4y ago
    After first writing the constitution to bar other from participating. The constitution did not come from thin air.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  Did America belong to the Indians at a point in history? What made it "their" land more than anybody else?
- rayiner 4y ago
  > 1. I have a problem with "their country". What makes this any country any more "their" than anybody else's People who share kinship ties and cultural ties built the physical and political world of the country. My wife’s family fought in the American revolution, and settled the Oregon coast. All the rugged frontier individualism that permeates American culture is her people. By contrast my family came here on a plane I. 1989. My ancestors contributed nothing to this country. This country’s culture, institutions, etc., bear none of their imprint. If they had, this would be a very different country. We have a whole country that they made but it’s not this one.
zug_zug 4y ago
Meh, race as we know it will cease to exist in about 40 years when we all edit our genes anyways. Even if I'm off by 100 years fretting about how many of which skin color exists is a fool's errand.
helen___keller 4y ago
Your entire argument rests upon unsupported notions of political and social homogeneity of racial groups. Seeing my race as important to my identity doesn’t mean I have the same beliefs as my neighbor, friend, coworker, or family member of the same race. It would be racist - actually racist, not the politically correct “racist” - to suggest all members of the same race have the same beliefs. And even worse is this paragraph implying some kind of future risk to white people if they were not in political control: > Will they be treated with gratitude for sharing their country, and so can afford to act colorblind, forsaking racial solidarity? Is gratitude what they're being shown now? Seriously, I would ask you both define gratitude concretely and justify why it matters. Otherwise you’re just vending fear.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > It would be racist to suggest all members of the same race have the same beliefs. I'm not suggesting that. Only that they, on average, exhibit in-group preference, to a degree that correlates with how important they say their racial identity is.
  - helen___keller 4y ago
    Can you justify that statement? I’m not even sure how you would quantify that. What counts as “in-group preference”? What do you mean “on average (…) to a degree that correlates with(…)”? For a sufficiently weak “in-group preference” and “correlates with”, this is a very easy claim to make. Sure, Indian Americans are more likely to support increased GC quota from India. They’re also more likely to have personal experience with how frustrating and difficult the GC system is for immigrants from India. Is that displaying in-group preference, or is that simply being more knowledgeable about a broken/unfair aspect of our immigration system that most people are unaware of? And just how much more likely are Indian Americans to support increased GC quotas from India compared to say white people, normalized against confounding factors like having background knowledge on our arcane and complicated immigration system? How do you relate this against how likely Indian Americans are to say that their race is part of their identity (which as you say is the degree of correlation on in group preference)? And is this behavior (in-group preference) consistent across a wide degree of issues across all races? Many people have already pointed out in the comments some counter examples with Latinos for example. Is this just an outlier?
rayiner 4y ago
> Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. In fact until 2008, the majority of Hispanics said there were “too many immigrants” in the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/19/latinos-have-become-less-likely-to-say-there-are-too-many-immigrants-in-u-s https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/19/latinos-hav.... It flipped around then, I assume for the same reason it flipped among democrat leaning white people—party polarization. But even today 85% of Hispanics think the level of foreigners in the country is about right or too much, while only 15% say they’re are too few. I agree ethnic solidarity politics is a danger, especially because some people are trying to push it so hard to keep minority voters in line (see the recent MSNBC article that basically excommunicated Nikki Haley from Indian Americans). But with 40% of Hispanics voting Republican in 2022, I think they’re headed the same way Italians, Irish, etc., did in previous generations. (Of course in the meantime the damage was done, with FDR getting elected, so there’s that.)
Jeema101 4y ago
Your comment isn't entirely relevant to the subject of the article. The article is about how the US fertility rate is at about 1.6 now. That's not enough to keep the population from shrinking. That's the author's point about why the U.S. will need immigration in some form or another going forward, because the only alternative will be a shrinking population and an increasingly older demographic.
mikem170 4y ago
> The Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. I'm seeing numbers that conflict with your assertion, above. I've heard that Latinos are in favor of border security, more so than immigration. From one of the references in the featured article [0]: > Less than half of registered Latino voters believe that the U.S.-Mexico border is totally secure ... over half of respondents said border security is a more important issue than immigration, 59% to 35%. Trump was very much anti-immigration, was very outspoken campaigning on that topic, and took what actions he could to decrease immigration when he was in office. Given this he got more Latino votes than Romney did in 2012 - 27% of Latinos voted for Romney in 2012, 29% for Trump in 2016, and grew his share of the Latino voters to 32% in 2020 [1]. I don't think the numbers you quoted support your point, especially given the more specific conflicting data I found. The article you got your numbers above from talked about perceptions of discrimination in the U.S., and how those perceptions have changed recently. I would assume that when minorities are treated differently by the majority because of their race they will say that their race is important to their identity, they can't escape being what they are and have to live with how they are treated. Why would you assume that means they'd treat other people unfairly? It doesn't have to be that way. Black South Africans gave amnesty to the whites there for the horrible things they did. > The simple reality is Whites will become a minority in what was an 84% White country as recently as 1970. Will they be treated with gratitude for sharing their country, and so can afford to act colorblind, forsaking racial solidarity? Is gratitude what they're being shown now? Immigrants choose to come here, even when it's very difficult to do so, and they very much appreciate what the opportunities they have in the U.S. They want to work for better lives, just like those who immigrated before them. They certainly don't come here to hate on whites and ruin the country. Southern and eastern European immigrants were looked down upon, mistreated and feared as the "others" by white anglo-saxon protestants a century ago, but by 1970 they are part of that 84% white population statistic that you quoted. They are one of us. Turns out there was nothing to be afraid of. [0] https://usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/10/04/latino-voters-southern-border-poll/8168969001/ https://usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/10/04/latino-v... [1] https://www.as-coa.org/articles/chart-how-us-latinos-voted-2020-presidential-election https://www.as-coa.org/articles/chart-how-us-latinos-voted-2...
- 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Der_Einzige 4y ago

Latino immigrants increased support for trump in 2020 vs 2016. Latinos are dropping catholicism and embracing evangelical protestantism (I've witnessed this with Latinos in my own life). There is a strong right wing shift happening right now among Latinos including first gen immigrants. Don't expect large amounts of immigrant solidarity from Latinos going forward. I think trump got slightly upwards of 40% of the Latino vote...

digianarchist 4y ago

America would already be a white minority nation had it not been for the racial bias towards Whites of previous immigration policies. I also think you can’t group Latinos as a voting bloc that swings one way on party or policy. Sure Latinos in Nevada lean blue and are more liberal but in Florida they are conservative and are voting Republican. Overall though I disagree with the framing. Why is a white minority a bad thing? Canada’s response to such demographic shifts is much more measured. We’re building a country together.

nhchris 4y ago
> Why is a white minority a bad thing? I addressed this question: "Or will that leave them as individualists in a country dominated by inter-group competition, as current polls suggest?" Of course this is not guaranteed - once Whites are a minority (in the US, not just globally), other races in the US may also turn away from in-group preference, and the culture might turn away from harping on white privilege all the time. It's just that that hasn't happened yet.
- DuskStar 4y ago
  The reverse is also plausible, and whites could begin to show in-group preference again.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mikem170 4y ago
  > and the culture might turn away from harping on white privilege all the time I agree this is interesting to watch. Minorities have more voice in the culture as the demographics change, and some in the majority want to push back. Identify politics is toxic, no matter where it comes from. Too many media organizations and politicians (on both sides of the aisle) want to take advantage of people's fears.
- apple10 4y ago
  [dead]
richjdsmith 4y ago
Canada currently feels more divided today than anytime in my life. I am not sure it is the best option to point at. I am not sure the source, however the data is starting to show that the housing issue is in fact a direct result of more immigration, so we may see a significant shift towards less immigration in the coming years.
- digianarchist 4y ago

Georgelemental 4y ago

> The Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. This is not universally true. While many Latinos do indeed vote this way, others resent having to compete for jobs and social services with more recent arrivals. Geography and background play a major role

davidf18 4y ago
[dead]
notch898a 4y ago
I've lived in Latino dominated neighborhoods for years. At least the ones I've lived in they almost out-white the modern day progressive whites. They like god, guns, the bible, and conservative family values. I expect more "traditional" values to be preserved from the latinos I am surrounded by than I would in most white dominated places. Overall I have very little concerns the latinos around me are going to do much moving and shaking against the status quo.

lahvak 4y ago

1. I have a problem with "their country". What makes this any country any more "their" than anybody else's? 2. Does their past and often even current behavior towards other immigrants deserve any gratitude?

onetimeusename 4y ago
Is Ecuador a country for Ecuadorians? If millions of white people moved to Ecuador, refused to learn Spanish, and said "this is no more your country than ours" and so forth, would you object to it?
- lahvak 4y ago
  Probably not, as long as they did not terrorize local population and act like they are somehow better.
junofan 4y ago
A country is a nation with a government. The US’s government is specified in the Constitution. The Constitution said only white men had a say. White men decided to change the Constitution to let others participate.
- lahvak 4y ago
  After first writing the constitution to bar other from participating. The constitution did not come from thin air.
weatherlite 4y ago
Did America belong to the Indians at a point in history? What made it "their" land more than anybody else?
rayiner 4y ago
> 1. I have a problem with "their country". What makes this any country any more "their" than anybody else's People who share kinship ties and cultural ties built the physical and political world of the country. My wife’s family fought in the American revolution, and settled the Oregon coast. All the rugged frontier individualism that permeates American culture is her people. By contrast my family came here on a plane I. 1989. My ancestors contributed nothing to this country. This country’s culture, institutions, etc., bear none of their imprint. If they had, this would be a very different country. We have a whole country that they made but it’s not this one.

zug_zug 4y ago

Meh, race as we know it will cease to exist in about 40 years when we all edit our genes anyways. Even if I'm off by 100 years fretting about how many of which skin color exists is a fool's errand.

helen___keller 4y ago

Your entire argument rests upon unsupported notions of political and social homogeneity of racial groups. Seeing my race as important to my identity doesn’t mean I have the same beliefs as my neighbor, friend, coworker, or family member of the same race. It would be racist - actually racist, not the politically correct “racist” - to suggest all members of the same race have the same beliefs. And even worse is this paragraph implying some kind of future risk to white people if they were not in political control: > Will they be treated with gratitude for sharing their country, and so can afford to act colorblind, forsaking racial solidarity? Is gratitude what they're being shown now? Seriously, I would ask you both define gratitude concretely and justify why it matters. Otherwise you’re just vending fear.

nhchris 4y ago
> It would be racist to suggest all members of the same race have the same beliefs. I'm not suggesting that. Only that they, on average, exhibit in-group preference, to a degree that correlates with how important they say their racial identity is.
- helen___keller 4y ago
  Can you justify that statement? I’m not even sure how you would quantify that. What counts as “in-group preference”? What do you mean “on average (…) to a degree that correlates with(…)”? For a sufficiently weak “in-group preference” and “correlates with”, this is a very easy claim to make. Sure, Indian Americans are more likely to support increased GC quota from India. They’re also more likely to have personal experience with how frustrating and difficult the GC system is for immigrants from India. Is that displaying in-group preference, or is that simply being more knowledgeable about a broken/unfair aspect of our immigration system that most people are unaware of? And just how much more likely are Indian Americans to support increased GC quotas from India compared to say white people, normalized against confounding factors like having background knowledge on our arcane and complicated immigration system? How do you relate this against how likely Indian Americans are to say that their race is part of their identity (which as you say is the degree of correlation on in group preference)? And is this behavior (in-group preference) consistent across a wide degree of issues across all races? Many people have already pointed out in the comments some counter examples with Latinos for example. Is this just an outlier?

rayiner 4y ago

> Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. In fact until 2008, the majority of Hispanics said there were “too many immigrants” in the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/19/latinos-have-become-less-likely-to-say-there-are-too-many-immigrants-in-u-s https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/19/latinos-hav.... It flipped around then, I assume for the same reason it flipped among democrat leaning white people—party polarization. But even today 85% of Hispanics think the level of foreigners in the country is about right or too much, while only 15% say they’re are too few. I agree ethnic solidarity politics is a danger, especially because some people are trying to push it so hard to keep minority voters in line (see the recent MSNBC article that basically excommunicated Nikki Haley from Indian Americans). But with 40% of Hispanics voting Republican in 2022, I think they’re headed the same way Italians, Irish, etc., did in previous generations. (Of course in the meantime the damage was done, with FDR getting elected, so there’s that.)

Jeema101 4y ago

Your comment isn't entirely relevant to the subject of the article. The article is about how the US fertility rate is at about 1.6 now. That's not enough to keep the population from shrinking. That's the author's point about why the U.S. will need immigration in some form or another going forward, because the only alternative will be a shrinking population and an increasingly older demographic.

mikem170 4y ago

> The Latino voting bloc, growing every day, votes against immigration reduction (or even enforcement, via sanctuary cities) out of ethnic solidarity. I'm seeing numbers that conflict with your assertion, above. I've heard that Latinos are in favor of border security, more so than immigration. From one of the references in the featured article [0]: > Less than half of registered Latino voters believe that the U.S.-Mexico border is totally secure ... over half of respondents said border security is a more important issue than immigration, 59% to 35%. Trump was very much anti-immigration, was very outspoken campaigning on that topic, and took what actions he could to decrease immigration when he was in office. Given this he got more Latino votes than Romney did in 2012 - 27% of Latinos voted for Romney in 2012, 29% for Trump in 2016, and grew his share of the Latino voters to 32% in 2020 [1]. I don't think the numbers you quoted support your point, especially given the more specific conflicting data I found. The article you got your numbers above from talked about perceptions of discrimination in the U.S., and how those perceptions have changed recently. I would assume that when minorities are treated differently by the majority because of their race they will say that their race is important to their identity, they can't escape being what they are and have to live with how they are treated. Why would you assume that means they'd treat other people unfairly? It doesn't have to be that way. Black South Africans gave amnesty to the whites there for the horrible things they did. > The simple reality is Whites will become a minority in what was an 84% White country as recently as 1970. Will they be treated with gratitude for sharing their country, and so can afford to act colorblind, forsaking racial solidarity? Is gratitude what they're being shown now? Immigrants choose to come here, even when it's very difficult to do so, and they very much appreciate what the opportunities they have in the U.S. They want to work for better lives, just like those who immigrated before them. They certainly don't come here to hate on whites and ruin the country. Southern and eastern European immigrants were looked down upon, mistreated and feared as the "others" by white anglo-saxon protestants a century ago, but by 1970 they are part of that 84% white population statistic that you quoted. They are one of us. Turns out there was nothing to be afraid of. [0] https://usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/10/04/latino-voters-southern-border-poll/8168969001/ https://usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/10/04/latino-v... [1] https://www.as-coa.org/articles/chart-how-us-latinos-voted-2020-presidential-election https://www.as-coa.org/articles/chart-how-us-latinos-voted-2...

4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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