5 ms·

I always thought having a "guild" like Hollywood does or something similar would be a great boon to empower tech workers. Of course, it wouldn't be 1:1 mapping

I always thought having a "guild" like Hollywood does or something similar would be a great boon to empower tech workers. Of course, it wouldn't be 1:1 mapping, but a collective tech union-like open institution would go far in leveraging against hostile employers. CEOs get golden parachutes on signing. It's time tech workers start demanding what their exit package looks like in case of layoffs/reductions against their will. I know a lot of this is wishful thinking, but in the face of an increasingly bleak economic landscape, we may need something like this sooner than later.

JohnFen 4y ago
> I always thought having a "guild" like Hollywood does or something similar would be a great boon to empower tech workers. Maybe. But remember that the Hollywood guild system also acts as gatekeepers keeping people out of the system.
- booi 4y ago
  Would AI be allies or scabs?
  - r2_pilot 4y ago
    Why not both? GANN vs LLM, an eternal cat and mouse game even more pointless than cryptocurrency mining
- asdff 4y ago
  Software development has arguably more gatekeeping even without any guild. Got a CS degree from a university that isn't R1 and didn't score a summer internship? Need a visa sponsor? I don't envy how painful your early career will be. Luck out with the Stanford admission and a summer internship? You are playing on easy mode.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    It depends on what part of the industry you're working in. If you're looking at FAANG-style companies, that's absolutely true. But there's much more to the industry than that.
    - splitstud 4y ago
      [dead]
    - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
      I got my FANG job with a degree from a 50-ish rank school. I think their acceptance rate was 70% so it’s not exactly Ivy League levels of gatekeeping. Some of my coworkers went to even lower ranked schools or altogether don’t have degrees (though I admit it’s uncommon).
      - jefftk 4y ago
        When I was at a FANG I had at least three bootcamp grads for close coworkers, and many with degrees from schools you've never heard of.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    Some of the best engineers I've ever worked don't even have a bachelor's degree. These autodidacts will suffer greatly if the wrong kind of "software guild" gains control over licensing tech employees.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      Not really, if the guild founders include self-taught coders then they will make provisions for their fellows.
    - asdff 4y ago
      SAG doesn't require a degree in screen acting. It's a little convoluted but they basically operate mainly on proof of work. That sort of system would probably give self taught engineers who spent their years from 18-22 doing actual work a huge leg up compared to those who were in school during that time doing no work on any projects for any company.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Those people have a huge leg up right now in large swaths of the industry anyway. The issue with the "proof of work" standard is it sets up a difficult conundrum. You need to work to join the guild, and you need to be a guild member to get most work.
        asdff 4y ago
        You can get hired for guild work as a non guild member, usually you join the guild after though.
        quartesixte 4y ago
        And that is the main gatekeeping mechanism that keeps so many talented young writers, actors, cinematographers, etc. out of the game or working for pennies on the dollar as assistants. It’s great when you’re in but if you don’t have the connections to get in you can find yourself on the outs for years. If a SWE guild can find a way to eliminate the nepotism and create a meritocratic way to get into a guild…
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    Strong disagreement! Software is the high paying industry with the least gatekeeping I'm aware of. I never got around to finish my degree. Neither did Bill Gates. I've worked with highschool dropouts and Harvard graduates. And by and large, nobody cares!
    - bilqis 4y ago
      Did you also have generational wealth and networking like Bill Gates?
      - BurningFrog 4y ago
        Not in the slightest :)
brodouevencode 4y ago
But a guild minus the dues, bureaucracy, political infighting, barriers to entry, and corruption.
twblalock 4y ago
Like quite a lot of guilds and unions, the actor's guild started out by defending workers rights against a restrictive system (in that case, the Hollywood studio system) but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. We really, really don't want that in tech. Tech is one of the few segments of the economy where skill trumps credentials and connections for people entering the field. As a result, tech benefits from a lot of talent that would be ignored by more traditional methods of filtering candidates. And what would tech workers gain? Unions don't stop layoffs -- look at the past few decades in the auto industry for proof. Unions would also negotiate standard pay packages that might be attractive to low performers, but would hold high performers back. Plus, severance packages are already legally mandated for layoffs in the places where the majority of tech workers live.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. SAG does not prohibit non-union actors in SAG-covered productions. In fact, appearing in a SAG-covered production is how one qualifies for membership into SAG. SAG sets minimum thresholds for pay, benefits, and rights. Actors are free to negotiate better packages if they have the leverage for it. Most don't, which is why the actor-waiter meme is a thing for people hoping to get cast into a SAG-covered role. As someone who has appeared as a background actor in a SAG-covered production: SAG minimums are significantly higher than non-SAG pay, at every level.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    > This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. I have been a member of several unions and I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree if you want, but I am speaking from real life experience.
    - 4y ago
filmgirlcw 4y ago
I don’t think the production guild system works in tech. In Hollywood, guilds and unions are necessary and work, in part because most people in the guild are independent contractors. Each production is its own thing. And that assignment could last a day, a few weeks, a few months, or years (depending on your contract/position), but it’s not an ongoing concern. Whereas in tech, that isn’t the case for the majority of the employees at large companies. Yes, you have consultants and contractors, hit the vast majority of people at Google or Microsoft or Facebook are full-time employees, not hired on a project by project basis. And that changes both the incentive structure and the organizing power. There are other unions that could be better parallels to trying to organize tech — but I don’t think the Hollywood guild system is the one to try to copy. You’d need to have specific unions covering each company (even if many companies were still affiliated with the same umbrella union) and carve outs and contracts for each company or even subgroup of workers inside a company. You couldn’t just do a blanket SAG-AFTRA style guild for everyone at every company when most of the employees are not on contract but full-time. It just wouldn’t work.
actualwitch 4y ago
I've been thinking about how IT union would look like, because IMO the reason it still hasn't materialized is that it needs to be dramatically different from the unions every other industry has. For one, I think it should be remote only, highly automated and the main offer would be to create a platform to discuss problems that arise, collectively make a choice and then enforce it through the hands of union members, if people sabotage the process they get kicked away. Have a way to prove that you are indeed a current member, things like that.
janalsncm 4y ago
The biggest barrier to unionizing in tech is immigration. A union is able to collectively bargain by restricting labor supply. If outside workers are able to work the same job, the biggest weapon a union has is taken away.

JohnFen 4y ago

> I always thought having a "guild" like Hollywood does or something similar would be a great boon to empower tech workers. Maybe. But remember that the Hollywood guild system also acts as gatekeepers keeping people out of the system.

booi 4y ago
Would AI be allies or scabs?
- r2_pilot 4y ago
  Why not both? GANN vs LLM, an eternal cat and mouse game even more pointless than cryptocurrency mining
asdff 4y ago
Software development has arguably more gatekeeping even without any guild. Got a CS degree from a university that isn't R1 and didn't score a summer internship? Need a visa sponsor? I don't envy how painful your early career will be. Luck out with the Stanford admission and a summer internship? You are playing on easy mode.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  It depends on what part of the industry you're working in. If you're looking at FAANG-style companies, that's absolutely true. But there's much more to the industry than that.
  - splitstud 4y ago
    [dead]
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    I got my FANG job with a degree from a 50-ish rank school. I think their acceptance rate was 70% so it’s not exactly Ivy League levels of gatekeeping. Some of my coworkers went to even lower ranked schools or altogether don’t have degrees (though I admit it’s uncommon).
    - jefftk 4y ago
      When I was at a FANG I had at least three bootcamp grads for close coworkers, and many with degrees from schools you've never heard of.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  Some of the best engineers I've ever worked don't even have a bachelor's degree. These autodidacts will suffer greatly if the wrong kind of "software guild" gains control over licensing tech employees.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Not really, if the guild founders include self-taught coders then they will make provisions for their fellows.
  - asdff 4y ago
    SAG doesn't require a degree in screen acting. It's a little convoluted but they basically operate mainly on proof of work. That sort of system would probably give self taught engineers who spent their years from 18-22 doing actual work a huge leg up compared to those who were in school during that time doing no work on any projects for any company.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      Those people have a huge leg up right now in large swaths of the industry anyway. The issue with the "proof of work" standard is it sets up a difficult conundrum. You need to work to join the guild, and you need to be a guild member to get most work.
      - asdff 4y ago
        You can get hired for guild work as a non guild member, usually you join the guild after though.
        quartesixte 4y ago
        And that is the main gatekeeping mechanism that keeps so many talented young writers, actors, cinematographers, etc. out of the game or working for pennies on the dollar as assistants. It’s great when you’re in but if you don’t have the connections to get in you can find yourself on the outs for years. If a SWE guild can find a way to eliminate the nepotism and create a meritocratic way to get into a guild…
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  Strong disagreement! Software is the high paying industry with the least gatekeeping I'm aware of. I never got around to finish my degree. Neither did Bill Gates. I've worked with highschool dropouts and Harvard graduates. And by and large, nobody cares!
  - bilqis 4y ago
    Did you also have generational wealth and networking like Bill Gates?
    - BurningFrog 4y ago
      Not in the slightest :)

brodouevencode 4y ago

But a guild minus the dues, bureaucracy, political infighting, barriers to entry, and corruption.

twblalock 4y ago

Like quite a lot of guilds and unions, the actor's guild started out by defending workers rights against a restrictive system (in that case, the Hollywood studio system) but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. We really, really don't want that in tech. Tech is one of the few segments of the economy where skill trumps credentials and connections for people entering the field. As a result, tech benefits from a lot of talent that would be ignored by more traditional methods of filtering candidates. And what would tech workers gain? Unions don't stop layoffs -- look at the past few decades in the auto industry for proof. Unions would also negotiate standard pay packages that might be attractive to low performers, but would hold high performers back. Plus, severance packages are already legally mandated for layoffs in the places where the majority of tech workers live.

gamblor956 4y ago
but has evolved into a gatekeeping and rent-seeking organization that primarily enriches its senior members and hurts everyone else. This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. SAG does not prohibit non-union actors in SAG-covered productions. In fact, appearing in a SAG-covered production is how one qualifies for membership into SAG. SAG sets minimum thresholds for pay, benefits, and rights. Actors are free to negotiate better packages if they have the leverage for it. Most don't, which is why the actor-waiter meme is a thing for people hoping to get cast into a SAG-covered role. As someone who has appeared as a background actor in a SAG-covered production: SAG minimums are significantly higher than non-SAG pay, at every level.
- twblalock 4y ago
  > This is not simply false, this is the typical FUD spread by people who have no idea how guilds or unions actually work. I have been a member of several unions and I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree if you want, but I am speaking from real life experience.
  - 4y ago

filmgirlcw 4y ago

I don’t think the production guild system works in tech. In Hollywood, guilds and unions are necessary and work, in part because most people in the guild are independent contractors. Each production is its own thing. And that assignment could last a day, a few weeks, a few months, or years (depending on your contract/position), but it’s not an ongoing concern. Whereas in tech, that isn’t the case for the majority of the employees at large companies. Yes, you have consultants and contractors, hit the vast majority of people at Google or Microsoft or Facebook are full-time employees, not hired on a project by project basis. And that changes both the incentive structure and the organizing power. There are other unions that could be better parallels to trying to organize tech — but I don’t think the Hollywood guild system is the one to try to copy. You’d need to have specific unions covering each company (even if many companies were still affiliated with the same umbrella union) and carve outs and contracts for each company or even subgroup of workers inside a company. You couldn’t just do a blanket SAG-AFTRA style guild for everyone at every company when most of the employees are not on contract but full-time. It just wouldn’t work.

actualwitch 4y ago

I've been thinking about how IT union would look like, because IMO the reason it still hasn't materialized is that it needs to be dramatically different from the unions every other industry has. For one, I think it should be remote only, highly automated and the main offer would be to create a platform to discuss problems that arise, collectively make a choice and then enforce it through the hands of union members, if people sabotage the process they get kicked away. Have a way to prove that you are indeed a current member, things like that.

janalsncm 4y ago

The biggest barrier to unionizing in tech is immigration. A union is able to collectively bargain by restricting labor supply. If outside workers are able to work the same job, the biggest weapon a union has is taken away.