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Your comment reminds me of Martin Niemöller: First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the

by molmalo 15y ago

Your comment reminds me of Martin Niemöller: First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak out because I was Protestant. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. I don't know when it will become unreasonable, but I don't want to get to that moment, just to realize there's no one to speak for us. They may start with piracy (OK, they are violating copyright), then why not libel, seems fair enough. And while we are there, why not stop this, and that. Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had an excellent phrase that I always remember: The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

troll24601 15y ago
It's disgusting that you chose to reappropriate that quote in this context. If you read the indictment, it's clear that this was the purposeful monetization of pirated material. It wasn't a few users who uploaded some things. It was a criminal site, operating in bad faith, committing a multitude of crimes. You should seriously be ashamed of yourself for comparing those famous words to seven criminals (who have strong evidence against them) who are about to get a jury trial.
- noonespecial 15y ago
  They're not "criminals" until after the trial. This is the problem people here are having with this. Site confiscated -> branded criminal -> trial. Is assbackwards.
  - troll24601 15y ago
    KIM DOTCOM is a convicted criminal. (securities fraud, embezzling, and some other crap) He's about to be tried again, for another crime. But he's already a criminal. The person I responded to was comparing mass genocide to the orderly trial of a criminal who is suspected of committing more crimes. That disgusts me. It casually trivializes massive horrors.
    - nitrogen 15y ago
      Kim Dotcom has, according to his claims, a clean slate. For your information my criminal record has been cleared under Germany’s clean slate legislation. Officially I can say I am without convictions. https://torrentfreak.com/from-rogue-to-vogue-megaupload-and-kim-dotcom-111218/ https://torrentfreak.com/from-rogue-to-vogue-megaupload-and-...
      - Drbble 15y ago
        Neither German nor US government have the right do define or power to define language beyond its use in government affairs. In the English language shared by millions of people, Kim is in fact a convicted criminal.
        nitrogen 15y ago
        It seems unproductive to society to treat "criminality" as a write-once binary switch, which once flipped can never be erased. There are far too many confounding factors. Someone is benefiting from the desire to brand human beings for life for something in their past, as well as the immediate assumption that accused is as good as guilty, but it isn't society. In fact, I know someone who used to like Megaupload to an extent, but even before a trial, thanks to this cultural tendency and inflammatory news coverage, said, "It turns out they were guilty of racketeering and money laundering, so they were some pretty bad guys." Despite being a reasonably well-informed person, he too fell victim to the urge to equate accusation with guilt. At this point it doesn't matter what Kim Dotcom did a decade ago in Germany, or whether Megaupload is guilty of all the things they're accused of and more. The damage to the public's perception of legitimate file sharing has been done, and what I think was the most important thing to come out of Mega, the MegaBox music service, is most likely dead.
- libraryatnight 15y ago
  You wouldn't say that if, in years ahead, you find yourself looking back and realizing acts like this were the beginning of a tight grip on information and freedom from a world where you're afraid to do much of anything anywhere in the world for fear of your business being shut down, being arrested, and treated as guilty until proven innocent, you probably wouldn't feel this was a disgusting comparison. I understand that it's easy to get swept away in fearful hyperbole, but it's not a bad thing to keep a cynical eye on the actions of a government, and not a bad thing to look to history at its worst for warning of a future we'd like to avoid. It's not a 1:1 comparison he's done, but it's a valid concern.
  - troll24601 15y ago
    Nothing about this case makes me fear your future. I read the indictment. The cause for fear simply isn't there. It's useless to pretend you're keeping an eye on the government when all you're really doing is getting a tiny shred of information and then getting hysterical because of it. Please don't pat yourselves on the back simply because you're able to get hysterical with your willfully ignorant, less-than-half-baked ideas about what happened. You aren't doing something noble, you're doing the opposite. You're making it hard to fight REAL fights because you're using energy on bullshit.
    - libraryatnight 15y ago
      I don't feel anyone is getting hysterical, and I feel his quote wasn't invoked for the benefit of the MegaUpload execs but rather at the current climate in general. Part of paying attention is to digest every 'shred' you do get. Also, this is an online forum, I doubt anyone feels their conversations here are noble acts or something to pat oneself on the back over, so painting broad ugly pictures of people you know very little about is just rude and not helpful to the discussion.
- molmalo 15y ago
  I think you don't realize that my comment was a response to noonespecial: First they come for the sites that are 90/10 pirate to legit. ... When will it be too much? When does it become unreasonable? So, I think the quotation was very fitting for the occasion, because it means exactly that. They may start taking people in custody because of a seemingly legit reason (in this case, copyright infringement, in the case of Nazi Germany, the Dolchstoßlegende). But power corrupts, and if they start passing laws to control more and more and more the Internet, who will be the next? It can be Reddit, an editor of Wikipedia, or even You. But of course, if you wish to honor your nickname, that's not my problem :) have a nice day.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - troll24601 15y ago
    > I think you don't realize that my comment was a response to noonespecial: First they come for the sites that are 90/10 pirate to legit. ... When will it be too much? When does it become unreasonable? If you'd read the indictment you'd know that the problem wasn't the percentages. We aren't standing on a slippery slope. Well, we are... but this case is not part of it at all. This case is a distraction from that problem. This is, at it's heart, a completely traditional bust of a large-scale for-profit copyright infringement regime. Nothing particularly new about it at all, except that instead of finding a warehouse filled with tapes or discs, it's all on spinning metal disks.
- gcb 15y ago
  What's the difference if you create a blog with ads, and your users started to upload ocr of books? Would you like to go to jail even though 70% of your users are honest and giving you a profit? If you think this is different, pls specify where the line is drawn
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
libraryatnight 15y ago
I liked the Alpha Centauri quote a lot so I searched it and I think the beginning of the quote is just as interesting: "As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century..."
- molmalo 15y ago
  You are absolutely right. But I didn't write that sentence, because I think it applies to everyone, not only American. In one example, take the Arab Spring for example, making governments fall thanks in part to the free flow of information (via internet). Or Spain's Sinde Law (which brings SOPA-like restrictions to Spain). We are a global community now. So it applies to everyone, everywhere.
  - libraryatnight 15y ago
    I agree completely, I just thought it was awesome that right now many of the headlines are focused on the U.S. which aligns with the "Painful" learning of the Americans in the context of the game ;)

by molmalo 15y ago

troll24601 15y ago

It's disgusting that you chose to reappropriate that quote in this context. If you read the indictment, it's clear that this was the purposeful monetization of pirated material. It wasn't a few users who uploaded some things. It was a criminal site, operating in bad faith, committing a multitude of crimes. You should seriously be ashamed of yourself for comparing those famous words to seven criminals (who have strong evidence against them) who are about to get a jury trial.

noonespecial 15y ago
They're not "criminals" until after the trial. This is the problem people here are having with this. Site confiscated -> branded criminal -> trial. Is assbackwards.
- troll24601 15y ago
  KIM DOTCOM is a convicted criminal. (securities fraud, embezzling, and some other crap) He's about to be tried again, for another crime. But he's already a criminal. The person I responded to was comparing mass genocide to the orderly trial of a criminal who is suspected of committing more crimes. That disgusts me. It casually trivializes massive horrors.
  - nitrogen 15y ago
    Kim Dotcom has, according to his claims, a clean slate. For your information my criminal record has been cleared under Germany’s clean slate legislation. Officially I can say I am without convictions. https://torrentfreak.com/from-rogue-to-vogue-megaupload-and-kim-dotcom-111218/ https://torrentfreak.com/from-rogue-to-vogue-megaupload-and-...
    - Drbble 15y ago
      Neither German nor US government have the right do define or power to define language beyond its use in government affairs. In the English language shared by millions of people, Kim is in fact a convicted criminal.
      - nitrogen 15y ago
        It seems unproductive to society to treat "criminality" as a write-once binary switch, which once flipped can never be erased. There are far too many confounding factors. Someone is benefiting from the desire to brand human beings for life for something in their past, as well as the immediate assumption that accused is as good as guilty, but it isn't society. In fact, I know someone who used to like Megaupload to an extent, but even before a trial, thanks to this cultural tendency and inflammatory news coverage, said, "It turns out they were guilty of racketeering and money laundering, so they were some pretty bad guys." Despite being a reasonably well-informed person, he too fell victim to the urge to equate accusation with guilt. At this point it doesn't matter what Kim Dotcom did a decade ago in Germany, or whether Megaupload is guilty of all the things they're accused of and more. The damage to the public's perception of legitimate file sharing has been done, and what I think was the most important thing to come out of Mega, the MegaBox music service, is most likely dead.
libraryatnight 15y ago
You wouldn't say that if, in years ahead, you find yourself looking back and realizing acts like this were the beginning of a tight grip on information and freedom from a world where you're afraid to do much of anything anywhere in the world for fear of your business being shut down, being arrested, and treated as guilty until proven innocent, you probably wouldn't feel this was a disgusting comparison. I understand that it's easy to get swept away in fearful hyperbole, but it's not a bad thing to keep a cynical eye on the actions of a government, and not a bad thing to look to history at its worst for warning of a future we'd like to avoid. It's not a 1:1 comparison he's done, but it's a valid concern.
- troll24601 15y ago
  Nothing about this case makes me fear your future. I read the indictment. The cause for fear simply isn't there. It's useless to pretend you're keeping an eye on the government when all you're really doing is getting a tiny shred of information and then getting hysterical because of it. Please don't pat yourselves on the back simply because you're able to get hysterical with your willfully ignorant, less-than-half-baked ideas about what happened. You aren't doing something noble, you're doing the opposite. You're making it hard to fight REAL fights because you're using energy on bullshit.
  - libraryatnight 15y ago
    I don't feel anyone is getting hysterical, and I feel his quote wasn't invoked for the benefit of the MegaUpload execs but rather at the current climate in general. Part of paying attention is to digest every 'shred' you do get. Also, this is an online forum, I doubt anyone feels their conversations here are noble acts or something to pat oneself on the back over, so painting broad ugly pictures of people you know very little about is just rude and not helpful to the discussion.
molmalo 15y ago
I think you don't realize that my comment was a response to noonespecial: First they come for the sites that are 90/10 pirate to legit. ... When will it be too much? When does it become unreasonable? So, I think the quotation was very fitting for the occasion, because it means exactly that. They may start taking people in custody because of a seemingly legit reason (in this case, copyright infringement, in the case of Nazi Germany, the Dolchstoßlegende). But power corrupts, and if they start passing laws to control more and more and more the Internet, who will be the next? It can be Reddit, an editor of Wikipedia, or even You. But of course, if you wish to honor your nickname, that's not my problem :) have a nice day.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- troll24601 15y ago
  > I think you don't realize that my comment was a response to noonespecial: First they come for the sites that are 90/10 pirate to legit. ... When will it be too much? When does it become unreasonable? If you'd read the indictment you'd know that the problem wasn't the percentages. We aren't standing on a slippery slope. Well, we are... but this case is not part of it at all. This case is a distraction from that problem. This is, at it's heart, a completely traditional bust of a large-scale for-profit copyright infringement regime. Nothing particularly new about it at all, except that instead of finding a warehouse filled with tapes or discs, it's all on spinning metal disks.
gcb 15y ago
What's the difference if you create a blog with ads, and your users started to upload ocr of books? Would you like to go to jail even though 70% of your users are honest and giving you a profit? If you think this is different, pls specify where the line is drawn

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

libraryatnight 15y ago

I liked the Alpha Centauri quote a lot so I searched it and I think the beginning of the quote is just as interesting: "As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century..."

molmalo 15y ago
You are absolutely right. But I didn't write that sentence, because I think it applies to everyone, not only American. In one example, take the Arab Spring for example, making governments fall thanks in part to the free flow of information (via internet). Or Spain's Sinde Law (which brings SOPA-like restrictions to Spain). We are a global community now. So it applies to everyone, everywhere.
- libraryatnight 15y ago
  I agree completely, I just thought it was awesome that right now many of the headlines are focused on the U.S. which aligns with the "Painful" learning of the Americans in the context of the game ;)