4 ms·

Is this a situation where it's not cheating to use a chatbot for the output? I understand it becomes nuanced if you edit the output, but still.

eertami 4y ago
This is cheating and while it might not be picked up in a high school essay, it will certainly be flagged for plagiarism at almost all Universities. It's very dangerous to do this unless your course specifically asks you to answer using AI tools, like the course in the OP.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  When you say "it will be flagged" do you mean that it would be considered cheating under existing academic dishonesty policies? or do you mean that the plagiarism-detection tools currently in use at universities can reliably detect the output of ChatGPT, new Bing, etc. that were only released publicly in the last few months
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    If you're just worried about the pragmatics of being caught, I'd keep in mind that ChatGPT doesn't actually have a very high "dynamic range" given some specific set of inputs. If you use it enough, or explore the same topics and prompts enough, you'll quickly start to see structures, words, phrases, presentations that its output gravitates towards. These may not be enough of a watermark to generally detect what was written by an AI and what wasn't yet, but it does suggest that the proliferation of AI-written assignment essays will quickly produce a catalog of plagiarism sources that works with existing tools. In other words, once people submit enough AI-written essays about popular assignment A, existing plagiarism detection tools will easily start to notice the phrases/sequences/structures that it statistically gravitates towards (because that's what it does by design!) and start detecting these in later work. That software won't know what's AI written or not, but it will think that your submission may be plagiarized because a lot of it looks pretty specifically familiar.
    - gertlex 4y ago
      Going a bit further... the AI tooling will also be used elsewhere, in things that not-just-students read. So writing style will potentially drift/evolve to be like AI writers, and this will muddy the detection efforts. I know I've noticed numerous times how I pick up on and start using phrasing (and other tells automatically), matching what others do over the years. Of course, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the above effect doesn't manifest. It's very dependent on how much AI writing spreads across numerous areas, and whether kids-these-days do any measurable amounts of long-form reading.
  - nomel 4y ago
    > can reliably detect the output of ChatGPT. I imagine schools will have to put minimal value in out of person assignments, relying on proctored exams for final grades. This might be an investment opportunity!
- leereeves 4y ago
  If students acknowledge that they used ChatGPT and what the prompt was (as required by the OP), then it's not plagiarism. But I think many professors who don't accept AI as a writing aide would say that it doesn't satisfy the assignment and is worth zero points.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    Using AI output isn’t plagiarism. Finders keepers. You push the button, you get the copyright, just like a camera. Now, whether it is ghostwriting is another matter.
    - thebooktocome 4y ago
      It's not settled law yet. Many jurisdictions seem inclined to assign no copyright at all to AI-generated works, like the United States and the European Union.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Copyright doesn't matter. It's about academic honesty, not whether you have the right to use the work. You can even plagiarize your own work.
    - b3morales 4y ago
      Plagiarism and copyright infringement have some overlap but they're distinct. You can be guilty of plagiarism by taking something in the public domain and presenting it as your own work.
realharo 4y ago
What about simply helping your child with their homework at all? That could also count as cheating if you go with a strict interpretation.
- tuukkah 4y ago
  For a reasonable interpretation, I offer this (in the context of programming): "The course recognizes that interactions with classmates and others can facilitate mastery of the course’s material. However, there remains a line between enlisting the help of another and submitting the work of another. [--] Working with (and even paying) a tutor to help you with the course, provided the tutor does not do your work for you." https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/honesty/ https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/honesty/
  - realharo 4y ago
    This is where AI could act as a good equalizer. Having access to people who can sit down with you and explain things to you when you get stuck, or who can point out mistakes in your existing understanding or your work, can make a huge difference in the outcomes of students. If AI gets good enough to fill that role, everyone can have that access (or at least something close enough).
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Pretty sure that would require AGI, and is at least well beyond the means of LLMs.
      - tuukkah 4y ago
        You can ask ChatGPT why your code is not working right, and often it will give a helpful suggestion. Sure, the suggestion may be wrong or misleading, but it can help you get unstuck in any case.
        tsimionescu 4y ago
isaacfrond 4y ago
1. I'm not going to take the moral highroad here. He's clearly going for an IT education. I think it's great that he is exploring these options. 2. He involved me, and we're making this a great learning experience. 3. Face the facts. This goes really fast. If you don't use an AI, your essay is going to be at the bottom of the heap. I'd estimate that out of the 35 essays, maybe 25 used AI for assistance.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  I don't understand or like schools that take a tough stance on computer-checking for plagarism and so on, that's just sad, but if the school thinks using this tool is cheating, then I'd avoid it. I've already heard that schools think that chatbots are a crisis, they can't do essay hand-ins anymore due to this, but maybe there are different approaches where they can handle it. Maybe some think for example that they can see through it and grade down if it is an apparent problem for the handed-in text anyway.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    They will probably have to start to test for the specific required skills in-class. Nobody is trying to test your knowledge of the multiplication table, or the trigonometric relations by allowing you to take the assignment home (or use a calculator during the test).
- barbariangrunge 4y ago
  Bottom of the heap? Ai essays suck. They’re painful to read for the most part. The only reason they look good is because the average person has undeveloped writing and critical thinking skills, so that comparatively they sometimes look okay. Refusing to learn to write is the opposite of the right approach here
  - ben_w 4y ago
    When I started secondary school in the UK, the home economics teacher (i.e. cooking and sewing) in the first lesson had a rant about how she absolutely did not want to see anyone write up their cooking with the phrase "I think it tasted quite nice" because it was a generic and content-free cliché. That's the standard ChatGPT has to beat to make you look good at school. Likewise, the average comments section is all you have to beat to seem erudite as an adult.
kulahan 4y ago
The article talks about it being required, so I assumed this was a similar scenario, personally.

eertami 4y ago

This is cheating and while it might not be picked up in a high school essay, it will certainly be flagged for plagiarism at almost all Universities. It's very dangerous to do this unless your course specifically asks you to answer using AI tools, like the course in the OP.

ghostpepper 4y ago
When you say "it will be flagged" do you mean that it would be considered cheating under existing academic dishonesty policies? or do you mean that the plagiarism-detection tools currently in use at universities can reliably detect the output of ChatGPT, new Bing, etc. that were only released publicly in the last few months
- swatcoder 4y ago
  If you're just worried about the pragmatics of being caught, I'd keep in mind that ChatGPT doesn't actually have a very high "dynamic range" given some specific set of inputs. If you use it enough, or explore the same topics and prompts enough, you'll quickly start to see structures, words, phrases, presentations that its output gravitates towards. These may not be enough of a watermark to generally detect what was written by an AI and what wasn't yet, but it does suggest that the proliferation of AI-written assignment essays will quickly produce a catalog of plagiarism sources that works with existing tools. In other words, once people submit enough AI-written essays about popular assignment A, existing plagiarism detection tools will easily start to notice the phrases/sequences/structures that it statistically gravitates towards (because that's what it does by design!) and start detecting these in later work. That software won't know what's AI written or not, but it will think that your submission may be plagiarized because a lot of it looks pretty specifically familiar.
  - gertlex 4y ago
    Going a bit further... the AI tooling will also be used elsewhere, in things that not-just-students read. So writing style will potentially drift/evolve to be like AI writers, and this will muddy the detection efforts. I know I've noticed numerous times how I pick up on and start using phrasing (and other tells automatically), matching what others do over the years. Of course, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the above effect doesn't manifest. It's very dependent on how much AI writing spreads across numerous areas, and whether kids-these-days do any measurable amounts of long-form reading.
- nomel 4y ago
  > can reliably detect the output of ChatGPT. I imagine schools will have to put minimal value in out of person assignments, relying on proctored exams for final grades. This might be an investment opportunity!
leereeves 4y ago
If students acknowledge that they used ChatGPT and what the prompt was (as required by the OP), then it's not plagiarism. But I think many professors who don't accept AI as a writing aide would say that it doesn't satisfy the assignment and is worth zero points.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Using AI output isn’t plagiarism. Finders keepers. You push the button, you get the copyright, just like a camera. Now, whether it is ghostwriting is another matter.
  - thebooktocome 4y ago
    It's not settled law yet. Many jurisdictions seem inclined to assign no copyright at all to AI-generated works, like the United States and the European Union.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Copyright doesn't matter. It's about academic honesty, not whether you have the right to use the work. You can even plagiarize your own work.
  - b3morales 4y ago
    Plagiarism and copyright infringement have some overlap but they're distinct. You can be guilty of plagiarism by taking something in the public domain and presenting it as your own work.

realharo 4y ago

What about simply helping your child with their homework at all? That could also count as cheating if you go with a strict interpretation.

tuukkah 4y ago
For a reasonable interpretation, I offer this (in the context of programming): "The course recognizes that interactions with classmates and others can facilitate mastery of the course’s material. However, there remains a line between enlisting the help of another and submitting the work of another. [--] Working with (and even paying) a tutor to help you with the course, provided the tutor does not do your work for you." https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/honesty/ https://cs50.harvard.edu/x/2023/honesty/
- realharo 4y ago
  This is where AI could act as a good equalizer. Having access to people who can sit down with you and explain things to you when you get stuck, or who can point out mistakes in your existing understanding or your work, can make a huge difference in the outcomes of students. If AI gets good enough to fill that role, everyone can have that access (or at least something close enough).
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Pretty sure that would require AGI, and is at least well beyond the means of LLMs.
    - tuukkah 4y ago
      You can ask ChatGPT why your code is not working right, and often it will give a helpful suggestion. Sure, the suggestion may be wrong or misleading, but it can help you get unstuck in any case.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago

isaacfrond 4y ago

1. I'm not going to take the moral highroad here. He's clearly going for an IT education. I think it's great that he is exploring these options. 2. He involved me, and we're making this a great learning experience. 3. Face the facts. This goes really fast. If you don't use an AI, your essay is going to be at the bottom of the heap. I'd estimate that out of the 35 essays, maybe 25 used AI for assistance.

kzrdude 4y ago
I don't understand or like schools that take a tough stance on computer-checking for plagarism and so on, that's just sad, but if the school thinks using this tool is cheating, then I'd avoid it. I've already heard that schools think that chatbots are a crisis, they can't do essay hand-ins anymore due to this, but maybe there are different approaches where they can handle it. Maybe some think for example that they can see through it and grade down if it is an apparent problem for the handed-in text anyway.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  They will probably have to start to test for the specific required skills in-class. Nobody is trying to test your knowledge of the multiplication table, or the trigonometric relations by allowing you to take the assignment home (or use a calculator during the test).
barbariangrunge 4y ago
Bottom of the heap? Ai essays suck. They’re painful to read for the most part. The only reason they look good is because the average person has undeveloped writing and critical thinking skills, so that comparatively they sometimes look okay. Refusing to learn to write is the opposite of the right approach here
- ben_w 4y ago
  When I started secondary school in the UK, the home economics teacher (i.e. cooking and sewing) in the first lesson had a rant about how she absolutely did not want to see anyone write up their cooking with the phrase "I think it tasted quite nice" because it was a generic and content-free cliché. That's the standard ChatGPT has to beat to make you look good at school. Likewise, the average comments section is all you have to beat to seem erudite as an adult.

kulahan 4y ago

The article talks about it being required, so I assumed this was a similar scenario, personally.