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Fascinating. My dad is a professor and over Christmas break I showed him ChatGPT and he became obsessed. So much so, in fact, that he used it to generate a syll

Fascinating. My dad is a professor and over Christmas break I showed him ChatGPT and he became obsessed. So much so, in fact, that he used it to generate a syllabus that prohibits the use of AI-assisted writing! The cognitive dissonance is wild to me, and I think approaching AI as a tool to be embraced is much healthier.

jrockway 4y ago
> The cognitive dissonance is wild to me I guess writing for class has always been about the process and not the result. Nobody has ever wanted to read an essay written by a student. But, the process of writing the essay is useful; collect sources, read them, distill down the important points, join the points with sentences. ChatGPT is all about the end result. Assignments are about the process.
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  sure, then why would chatGPT hinder that process? ChatGPT, will just assemble the words. You can still create a better document working along side chatGPT by critically thinking about the output it's spewing and correcting it. There is probably nuance there but I that chatGPT creating a generation of zombies is over stated. chatGPT is like a calculator used in mathematics.
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    And, as a former secondary math teacher, I would argue that the use of a calculator has absolutely created a generation of zombies who can't do, or understand, basic math. We're talking simple things like multiply, or figure out how many Monsters they can buy for $5, or calculate change. If they can't do basic arithmetic, there's no way they can understand the actual concepts underlying math, or have any type of number sense (and they don't; though, granted, neither do most of their elementary school teachers). It'll be absolutely horrible if they have no idea of how to craft a coherent argument, or deeply think because ChatGPT just spews out something (and who knows if it even gives factual answers; they'll never know to check). Couple this with other issues arising from over reliance and overuse of smart phones and we're setting ourselves, and them, up for a grim future facing serious existential problems (.i. climate change)
    - asow92 4y ago
      I have a question for someone with your perspective: something I've been wondering is should we be using programming to teach the underlying concepts of basic math? Would learning the algorithms of math be a more appropriate way of conveying the theory to students?
      - dorchadas 4y ago
        I think there is still some algorithm-based teaching, or at least the students I taught had been taught via algorithms. The simple O(n^2) multiplication one, or long division, or adding/subtracting with carrying/borrowing. I know a lot of the perceived complaints about the 'common core' change were a push away from this, though I never had any of those students (too young, and I left teaching two years ago, at least for now). That said, I think the common core way was a better way to go about it to help kids get a number sense. I see so many kids who don't know that, for, say, 28 + 35 you can simply rearrange this to be 30+33. They have no concept of what addition means, or how you can regroup parts. Same with breaking down multiplication and how you can do it by parts and then sum it. They have no concept of how the numbers work, basically, and I don't think algorithms would give them that sense, it'd just give them steps to compute stuff.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    Assembling the words is a skill you need, which is why you're taking a class that requires it. To some extent, you are probably thankful your elementary school teachers didn't let you use a calculator to do stuff like 2 + 2 = 4 or the multiplication tables. Doing that quickly without any tools is useful in the real world. Similarly, you will often have to argue for your point of view in real-time; there won't be time to craft a prompt and ask the AI what it thinks. "Why should we do this your way?" "Why should we hire you?" "Why should I let you go with just a warning?" It all matters.
    - jcutrell 4y ago
      I used to be told I needed to learn cursive. My parents had to learn how to operate a typewriter. All of this is just various levels of abstraction. It’s still your responsibility to manage the final outcome, which is a far distance from “assembling words.”
  - ben_w 4y ago
    I don't know if this is still the case, but my GCSE maths exams back in 2000 were split into "calculators allowed" and "calculators forbidden". It can be useful to know how to use a tool, and can also useful to know how to do similar things without that tool.
- asow92 4y ago
  In my school we had a motto: "No excuses, just results." I guess we have no excuse to not produce results anymore.
wyldfire 4y ago
> The cognitive dissonance is wild to me, and I think approaching AI as a tool to be embraced is much healthier. It's both healthy and realistic. Let's be real - it's not going away. It seems like it's mostly/somewhat useful now. It's only going to get better. People undoubtedly will find a way to leverage the tool to make themselves more productive. If that's the case, we should (1) continue to teach the skills exhibited by the machine learning models and (2) help students gain mastery over the tools so they can be productive when they start to work in a world where their peers are already using them.
js8 4y ago
> The cognitive dissonance is wild to me Maybe he found beauty in that irony. I have no doubt progress will march on. I was telling a coworker that I think humans will have symbiotic relations with AIs in the future, and he noted, we will be the heart and AI will be the brains. I think that sums it up beautifully.
lm28469 4y ago
Which cognitive dissonance ? Some people are here to learn basic skills they'll use all their lives, the other is here to do his job

jrockway 4y ago

> The cognitive dissonance is wild to me I guess writing for class has always been about the process and not the result. Nobody has ever wanted to read an essay written by a student. But, the process of writing the essay is useful; collect sources, read them, distill down the important points, join the points with sentences. ChatGPT is all about the end result. Assignments are about the process.

waynesonfire 4y ago
sure, then why would chatGPT hinder that process? ChatGPT, will just assemble the words. You can still create a better document working along side chatGPT by critically thinking about the output it's spewing and correcting it. There is probably nuance there but I that chatGPT creating a generation of zombies is over stated. chatGPT is like a calculator used in mathematics.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  And, as a former secondary math teacher, I would argue that the use of a calculator has absolutely created a generation of zombies who can't do, or understand, basic math. We're talking simple things like multiply, or figure out how many Monsters they can buy for $5, or calculate change. If they can't do basic arithmetic, there's no way they can understand the actual concepts underlying math, or have any type of number sense (and they don't; though, granted, neither do most of their elementary school teachers). It'll be absolutely horrible if they have no idea of how to craft a coherent argument, or deeply think because ChatGPT just spews out something (and who knows if it even gives factual answers; they'll never know to check). Couple this with other issues arising from over reliance and overuse of smart phones and we're setting ourselves, and them, up for a grim future facing serious existential problems (.i. climate change)
  - asow92 4y ago
    I have a question for someone with your perspective: something I've been wondering is should we be using programming to teach the underlying concepts of basic math? Would learning the algorithms of math be a more appropriate way of conveying the theory to students?
    - dorchadas 4y ago
      I think there is still some algorithm-based teaching, or at least the students I taught had been taught via algorithms. The simple O(n^2) multiplication one, or long division, or adding/subtracting with carrying/borrowing. I know a lot of the perceived complaints about the 'common core' change were a push away from this, though I never had any of those students (too young, and I left teaching two years ago, at least for now). That said, I think the common core way was a better way to go about it to help kids get a number sense. I see so many kids who don't know that, for, say, 28 + 35 you can simply rearrange this to be 30+33. They have no concept of what addition means, or how you can regroup parts. Same with breaking down multiplication and how you can do it by parts and then sum it. They have no concept of how the numbers work, basically, and I don't think algorithms would give them that sense, it'd just give them steps to compute stuff.
- jrockway 4y ago
  Assembling the words is a skill you need, which is why you're taking a class that requires it. To some extent, you are probably thankful your elementary school teachers didn't let you use a calculator to do stuff like 2 + 2 = 4 or the multiplication tables. Doing that quickly without any tools is useful in the real world. Similarly, you will often have to argue for your point of view in real-time; there won't be time to craft a prompt and ask the AI what it thinks. "Why should we do this your way?" "Why should we hire you?" "Why should I let you go with just a warning?" It all matters.
  - jcutrell 4y ago
    I used to be told I needed to learn cursive. My parents had to learn how to operate a typewriter. All of this is just various levels of abstraction. It’s still your responsibility to manage the final outcome, which is a far distance from “assembling words.”
- ben_w 4y ago
  I don't know if this is still the case, but my GCSE maths exams back in 2000 were split into "calculators allowed" and "calculators forbidden". It can be useful to know how to use a tool, and can also useful to know how to do similar things without that tool.
asow92 4y ago
In my school we had a motto: "No excuses, just results." I guess we have no excuse to not produce results anymore.

wyldfire 4y ago

> The cognitive dissonance is wild to me, and I think approaching AI as a tool to be embraced is much healthier. It's both healthy and realistic. Let's be real - it's not going away. It seems like it's mostly/somewhat useful now. It's only going to get better. People undoubtedly will find a way to leverage the tool to make themselves more productive. If that's the case, we should (1) continue to teach the skills exhibited by the machine learning models and (2) help students gain mastery over the tools so they can be productive when they start to work in a world where their peers are already using them.

js8 4y ago

> The cognitive dissonance is wild to me Maybe he found beauty in that irony. I have no doubt progress will march on. I was telling a coworker that I think humans will have symbiotic relations with AIs in the future, and he noted, we will be the heart and AI will be the brains. I think that sums it up beautifully.

lm28469 4y ago

Which cognitive dissonance ? Some people are here to learn basic skills they'll use all their lives, the other is here to do his job