4 ms·

The Netherlands doesn't have tens of millions of citizens who refuse to engage with society in any meaningful way due to certain circumstances from many generat

by dokem 4y ago

The Netherlands doesn't have tens of millions of citizens who refuse to engage with society in any meaningful way due to certain circumstances from many generations ago.

l33t233372 4y ago
Jim Crow, redlining, and other “official” forms of discrimination are not things from many generations ago.
contravariant 4y ago
True but that is a vacuous statement as the Netherlands does not have tens of millions of citizens.
pipodeclown 4y ago
Sure but isn't that a bit of a chicken-egg question? Why doesn't that the Netherlands have a huge poor underclass? Perhaps it has something to do with education at all levels being practically free and having social safety nets to ensure people don't fall through the cracks of the system ending up being homeless/destitute. I can tell you btw we do have a significantly large underclass, they just don't live on the street or in crime ridden ghettos.
- lozenge 4y ago
  It has more to do with the Dutch gaining their wealth through colonising their underclass, instead of what the US did which was import an underclass as slaves. Well, they did enslave Africans, but they were sold to the Americas instead of brought "home".
recuter 4y ago
Of course, because they didn't keep them anywhere near themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_slavery It did help them jumpstart their economical development by.. quite a lot tho and they have been very prudent with their money ever since.
paulmd 4y ago
Many europeans would feel that precisely describes the roma. Hoo boy you wanna see a European get real ugly real fast, ask them about the Roma sometime. I'm not racist but with those people it's not really racism, it's just fact... type stuff will follow. but like, at the end of the day thinking that "multiple cultural groups" is the problem basically a coded/socially-acceptable way of saying that we can't have a social safety net because of black/hispanic people (or whatever disfavored minority/immigrant group is currently en-vogue). It always has been.
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  You cannot dislike an antiquated society that contributes almost nothing to society and parasitises in multiple ways, without being a racist ? It has nothing to do with race. Roma people have continuously refused to integrate, which is perfectly fine if they don't want to, but then don't be a weight on the host society by receiving every form of financial support you can get your hands on, while being a centre for criminality, and demanding access to what a contributing member of society can access. I have experienced roma communities first hand. They shun their own who decide to get educated. Is that the kind of societies you'd like around your kids in the 21st century ? There must be a reason that people dislike certain societies.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    We should separate race from lifestyle: Roma, and nomads or travellers. The British government doesn't, but it does show the "White Gypsy/Traveller" ethnicity has 31.2% "Never worked or long-term unemployed", higher than any other group [1]. Particular types of petty crime obviously increased when travellers settled (temporarily) on some land near where I grew up. It happened every 18 months or so. However, this doesn't show up in arrest statistics, so I think it's that society is accustomed to the existing petty crime and notices the change. [1] https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/demographics/socioeconomic-status/latest#ethnic-groups-by-socio-economic-status https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-popula...
mcv 4y ago
Because we don't have tens of millions of citizens. But we do have people who, due to a wide variety of circumstances, are excluded from society or aren't very productive. Our string of right-wing governments haven't done much to fix that (and sometimes made it a lot worse), but it's good to see citizens step up with these sort of projects. I still think it's a failure of the system that this is even necessary.

by dokem 4y ago

The Netherlands doesn't have tens of millions of citizens who refuse to engage with society in any meaningful way due to certain circumstances from many generations ago.

l33t233372 4y ago

Jim Crow, redlining, and other “official” forms of discrimination are not things from many generations ago.

contravariant 4y ago

True but that is a vacuous statement as the Netherlands does not have tens of millions of citizens.

pipodeclown 4y ago

Sure but isn't that a bit of a chicken-egg question? Why doesn't that the Netherlands have a huge poor underclass? Perhaps it has something to do with education at all levels being practically free and having social safety nets to ensure people don't fall through the cracks of the system ending up being homeless/destitute. I can tell you btw we do have a significantly large underclass, they just don't live on the street or in crime ridden ghettos.

lozenge 4y ago
It has more to do with the Dutch gaining their wealth through colonising their underclass, instead of what the US did which was import an underclass as slaves. Well, they did enslave Africans, but they were sold to the Americas instead of brought "home".

recuter 4y ago

Of course, because they didn't keep them anywhere near themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_slavery It did help them jumpstart their economical development by.. quite a lot tho and they have been very prudent with their money ever since.

paulmd 4y ago

Many europeans would feel that precisely describes the roma. Hoo boy you wanna see a European get real ugly real fast, ask them about the Roma sometime. I'm not racist but with those people it's not really racism, it's just fact... type stuff will follow. but like, at the end of the day thinking that "multiple cultural groups" is the problem basically a coded/socially-acceptable way of saying that we can't have a social safety net because of black/hispanic people (or whatever disfavored minority/immigrant group is currently en-vogue). It always has been.

4gotunameagain 4y ago
You cannot dislike an antiquated society that contributes almost nothing to society and parasitises in multiple ways, without being a racist ? It has nothing to do with race. Roma people have continuously refused to integrate, which is perfectly fine if they don't want to, but then don't be a weight on the host society by receiving every form of financial support you can get your hands on, while being a centre for criminality, and demanding access to what a contributing member of society can access. I have experienced roma communities first hand. They shun their own who decide to get educated. Is that the kind of societies you'd like around your kids in the 21st century ? There must be a reason that people dislike certain societies.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  We should separate race from lifestyle: Roma, and nomads or travellers. The British government doesn't, but it does show the "White Gypsy/Traveller" ethnicity has 31.2% "Never worked or long-term unemployed", higher than any other group [1]. Particular types of petty crime obviously increased when travellers settled (temporarily) on some land near where I grew up. It happened every 18 months or so. However, this doesn't show up in arrest statistics, so I think it's that society is accustomed to the existing petty crime and notices the change. [1] https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/demographics/socioeconomic-status/latest#ethnic-groups-by-socio-economic-status https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-popula...

mcv 4y ago

Because we don't have tens of millions of citizens. But we do have people who, due to a wide variety of circumstances, are excluded from society or aren't very productive. Our string of right-wing governments haven't done much to fix that (and sometimes made it a lot worse), but it's good to see citizens step up with these sort of projects. I still think it's a failure of the system that this is even necessary.