12 ms·

You also just build a nicer world to live in. The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
At the macro level, a country’s immigration controls are the gates for that community and at a micro level, the locked doors/gates to a house or property are the gates. At which level they should or should not exist is dependent on many parameters, but I would not classify it as bizarre. People in the US are fortunate enough to have so much space that many times distances themselves serve as the gate, but if you live in a more dense society, perhaps a controlled border is necessary for some purpose. It is dystopian though, I imagine it is a direct representation of lack of trust between the members in society, and likely related to the size of wealth gaps.
tomp 4y ago
I'm pretty sure the Netherlands is a "gated community". Every EU country is. At current technology levels, it's simply impossible to have a "social net" (i.e. guaranteeing every citizen enough resources for a minimum standard of living) and open borders (i.e. infinite demand for said resources)
kortilla 4y ago
> The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian. Oh? Well how easy is it for a poor person from India to move to the Netherlands to take advantage of this?
- WildGreenLeave 4y ago
  We have a lot of expats from India, mostly software engineering. They are being picked based on their skills. Income/background does not have anything to do with this, even more so, I think that using that kind of information is even illegal here. That being said, there is a different argument to be made. The Netherlands does not have a lot of private schools, and private schools generally tend to not be more exclusive than regular schools. This means that an applicant that went to private school might have an advantage but generally you can go to any school and there will be plenty of decent paying jobs or chances for you. Along with that, every person in The Netherlands is able to go and study. Either you take out a (compared to the US, small) loan and even that is being reverted to a gift from the government or you work along side to it. I am quite sure that this is not the case in India and therefore a poor person will have less of a chance then a rich person. But this is unrelated to the companies hiring and it is purely related to your study.
  - themaninthedark 4y ago
    When you say "They are being picked", do you mean that they are being picked for immigration purposes? The point of the parent is that it is hard for a random Indian to immigrate to the Netherlands, that they must show some skill or ability in order to gain entry. The argument is that the Netherlands can afford their social net because they do not have an endless stream of people coming asking for benefits. So by limiting the amount of immigration, the Netherlands is acting like a gated community. A further argument along these lines would be, if you do not feel that the Netherlands is acting as a gated community. Should the Netherlands open it's social programs to people not in the Netherlands? i.e. Should Americans or Mexicans be allowed to apply and receive benefits from the Netherlands even though they have no tie to the Netherlands?
    - WildGreenLeave 4y ago
      When I say "they are being picked" I mean they are being picked by the company based on their skills. Regardless of immigration. From a cultural standpoint I wouldn't want to open up further, from a purely theoretical standpoint I would have no problem opening up our social programs to outside the Netherlands if the additional group (regardless of it being a group, country, province, state, whatever) pays the same amount of tax as we do. But good luck implementing that, income tax for India is max 30%, compare that to our lowest bracket which is already 37% and goes up to 50%.
      - sixstringtheory 4y ago
        And that 37-50 percent is just what is necessary to sustain the people already on benefits there, in that geographical location. If you throw in people that live in earthquake/typhoon/volcanic/etc locales, with different diseases and food production, natural resources, climate, and scale up the population of people to administer all those benefits by a couple orders of magnitude, you can bet you’ll be paying a lot more in taxes to try to afford the same quality of life for everyone.
      - kortilla 4y ago
        You’re missing the point. The people that would apply would happily pay the increased tax rate because their annual income is going to be <20k euros and they’ll receive far more in benefits.

At the macro level, a country’s immigration controls are the gates for that community and at a micro level, the locked doors/gates to a house or property are the gates. At which level they should or should not exist is dependent on many parameters, but I would not classify it as bizarre. People in the US are fortunate enough to have so much space that many times distances themselves serve as the gate, but if you live in a more dense society, perhaps a controlled border is necessary for some purpose. It is dystopian though, I imagine it is a direct representation of lack of trust between the members in society, and likely related to the size of wealth gaps.

tomp 4y ago

I'm pretty sure the Netherlands is a "gated community". Every EU country is. At current technology levels, it's simply impossible to have a "social net" (i.e. guaranteeing every citizen enough resources for a minimum standard of living) and open borders (i.e. infinite demand for said resources)

kortilla 4y ago

> The mere concept of a “gated community” is bizarre and dystopian. Oh? Well how easy is it for a poor person from India to move to the Netherlands to take advantage of this?

WildGreenLeave 4y ago
We have a lot of expats from India, mostly software engineering. They are being picked based on their skills. Income/background does not have anything to do with this, even more so, I think that using that kind of information is even illegal here. That being said, there is a different argument to be made. The Netherlands does not have a lot of private schools, and private schools generally tend to not be more exclusive than regular schools. This means that an applicant that went to private school might have an advantage but generally you can go to any school and there will be plenty of decent paying jobs or chances for you. Along with that, every person in The Netherlands is able to go and study. Either you take out a (compared to the US, small) loan and even that is being reverted to a gift from the government or you work along side to it. I am quite sure that this is not the case in India and therefore a poor person will have less of a chance then a rich person. But this is unrelated to the companies hiring and it is purely related to your study.
- themaninthedark 4y ago
  When you say "They are being picked", do you mean that they are being picked for immigration purposes? The point of the parent is that it is hard for a random Indian to immigrate to the Netherlands, that they must show some skill or ability in order to gain entry. The argument is that the Netherlands can afford their social net because they do not have an endless stream of people coming asking for benefits. So by limiting the amount of immigration, the Netherlands is acting like a gated community. A further argument along these lines would be, if you do not feel that the Netherlands is acting as a gated community. Should the Netherlands open it's social programs to people not in the Netherlands? i.e. Should Americans or Mexicans be allowed to apply and receive benefits from the Netherlands even though they have no tie to the Netherlands?
  - WildGreenLeave 4y ago
    When I say "they are being picked" I mean they are being picked by the company based on their skills. Regardless of immigration. From a cultural standpoint I wouldn't want to open up further, from a purely theoretical standpoint I would have no problem opening up our social programs to outside the Netherlands if the additional group (regardless of it being a group, country, province, state, whatever) pays the same amount of tax as we do. But good luck implementing that, income tax for India is max 30%, compare that to our lowest bracket which is already 37% and goes up to 50%.
    - sixstringtheory 4y ago
      And that 37-50 percent is just what is necessary to sustain the people already on benefits there, in that geographical location. If you throw in people that live in earthquake/typhoon/volcanic/etc locales, with different diseases and food production, natural resources, climate, and scale up the population of people to administer all those benefits by a couple orders of magnitude, you can bet you’ll be paying a lot more in taxes to try to afford the same quality of life for everyone.
    - kortilla 4y ago
      You’re missing the point. The people that would apply would happily pay the increased tax rate because their annual income is going to be <20k euros and they’ll receive far more in benefits.