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America is such a weird country. I feel like it's (both practically and culturally) fascist. I am not trying to be dick or insulting, I mean big parts of the

America is such a weird country. I feel like it's (both practically and culturally) fascist. I am not trying to be dick or insulting, I mean big parts of the US closely fit the definition(s) [0] But the US ended up on the Allies side in WW2, and much of he constitution (not all) follows classical-liberalism. So the US finds it's simultaneously talking about democracy and rights AND happier when those things are subverted/removed. I know all nations contain contradictions. But I don't know any denied as this one... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto_Eco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto...

r2_pilot 4y ago
The symbology isn't far from the mark, either, with the Senate seal consisting of "A red liberty cap above the shield and crossed fasces below the shield represent freedom and authority, respectively.", per Wiki. The Black Iron Prison remains; Rome has yet to fall.
lapcat 4y ago
> America is such a weird country. This is true. It's also one of the largest and most diverse countries in the world, both geographically and demographically. Some might say it's ungovernable, the Disunited States. > big parts of the US closely fit the definition(s) [0] [Following the link] "What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments has been a complicated and highly disputed subject" Difficult to closely fit the definition when there's no clear definition. ;-)
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  Maybe I would have been better avoiding the "F word" and just calling it very illiberal? :shrugs:
  - lapcat 4y ago
    I don't know. It's a spectrum. There are certainly a lot of countries in the world that are a lot worse on that measure.
    - grecy 4y ago
      I’m always fascinated when people compare down. Are you proud your sports team isn’t on the bottom of the ladder? Or would it actually be productive and improve things if you compared up?
      - lapcat 4y ago
        This a straw man. The point here is truth and accuracy. Is the US fascist and "very illiberal"? No, I don't think so. Perhaps "moderately illiberal" would be more accurate. Can the US be improved? Of course! My intention is not to defend the US but to accurately describe it. I don't think fascist is accurate. Above all, the US is large, complicated, and conflicted. Non-Americans like to paint America with a broad brush, but Americans are actually in widespread disagreement about a lot of things.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        >Are you proud your sports team isn’t on the bottom of the ladder? Or would it actually be productive and improve things if you compared up? It seems like it would be productive to be grounded in reality and actually know where you sit on the ladder. You can still look at the top teams and want to be better, but lying and telling the team you are at the bottom isn't helpful.
  - unmole 4y ago
    Right, the country with the strongest freedom of speech protections in the world is so illberal.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - LatteLazy 4y ago
      That's sort of my point: Excellent freedom of speech (because someone in 1780 thought of that). But you can be gunned down in the street by the police (because some guy in 1780 forgot to explicitly ban that). It's a weird mix no? And the Liberal bits all date back to way before anyone now alive was born (with a few exceptions like gay marriage)
      - yucky 4y ago
        Every year there are around 1,000 people killed in police interactions. Every year around 25 of those cases were people who were unarmed and/or not actively trying to kill the police officer. Now, that is 25 too many for sure. But in a nation of 350 million people, 25 unarmed people killed by cops is sad but statistically a rounding error. Also, most of the time the cops in those cases are rightfully convicted and sent to prison so qualified immunity isn't relevant. That said, there are far too many other police abuses that need to be addressed which are a more significant issue because they affect far more people.
      - unmole 4y ago
        > But you can be gunned down in the street by the police The statistical likelihood of that happening is approximately zero. Extrapolating from this to Fascism is plainly ridiculous.
- andromeduck 4y ago
  That's a very Euro/Ameri-centric take. Most of the world is much much different especially if you look like you should belong/conform.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    Could you please explain this comment in more detail? Because I honestly don't know what it's supposed to mean.
junofan 4y ago
If you read Eco’s essay, you’ll see he holds up America as an example of a country that is not fascist. So I don’t think he’d agree with you.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  He also wrote it 28 years ago. Can a country change that fast and has it are certainly two different questions.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    The seeds were all planted 28 years ago. They just hadn't fully flowered yet.
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    Not necessarily weight in on if fascists or not. But this point can definitely be true and we even have an example. Germany went from the loss of WW1 to the Wiemar Republican, probably one of the most liberal governments in its day, to Nazi Germany in pretty much a 20 year period.
- klyrs 4y ago
  America is a weird place. I would evaluate a more specific claim: Trumpism is Fascism, according to Eco's fourteen points: > "The cult of tradition" This point is rather weakly supported, as Trump does not attend any tradition whatsoever. However, his Supreme Court picks are originalists from the Federalist Society, whose purpose is the maintenance of tradition. > "The rejection of modernism" Anti-vax, anti-woke, anti-LGBT. > "The cult of action for action's sake", I don't see this in Trump specifically. The Iraq invasion, certainly, but that's far enough removed from Trumpism that I'll say nah. > "Disagreement is treason" This, 100 times over. Trump has used, if not these exact words, this sentiment towards any sort of criticism especially when it comes from within his own party/cabinet. > "Fear of difference" Mexico. China. Shithole countries. Saying American Congresswomen should "go back where they came from." > "Appeal to a frustrated middle class" Trump's anti-NAFTA stance was widely described as the reason that he was the economically rational choice for many voters who were displaced from the middle class when manufacturing jobs were exported by that agreement. > "Obsession with a plot" QAnon. > "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" Trump was curiously less hawkish than recent presidents; he gets a pass here. > "Contempt for the weak" Trump wears this on his sleeve and proclaims love, literally love for authoritarian leaders he sees as strong. > "Everybody is educated to become a hero" This point is somewhat weak; but his attack on John McCain stands out: "I like people who weren't captured" > "Machismo" Yes. From "grab 'em by the pussy" to sexualizing his own daughter to his "low energy" comments about his political opponents; there are too many examples to list. > "Selective populism" This is a common theme for Trump -- he frequently equates his opinion with the will of the people, and derides anybody who disagrees with him as un-American. > "Newspeak" Calling this "newspeak" is contentious; Eco's point was about promoting an impoverished vocabulary. The Republican party has long relied on "definitions," or linguistic originalism, to argue against social progress; specifically against gay marriage and trans rights. By my count, that's 9.5/14. Trumpism is more fascist than not, by Eco's definition. Hitler was bent on world domination, which is the principle axis that Trumpism fails Eco's test. That Trump was elected points to the popularity of fascism in the US. It isn't a monoculture, America is not just fascist, but concerns about fascism are well-justified.
ttfkam 4y ago
Racism in the US has always just been fascism that mostly missed white folks. See: Post-Reconstruction such as the Wilmington insurrection
Georgelemental 4y ago
I don't think Umberto's points 1 and 2 match historical reality. The only political movement to ever call itself "fascist" was Italian Fascism, and Mussolini's comrades were not wedded to tradition and divorced from modernity. For example, they ran a campaign against pasta, because pasta was an "outdated tradition" and needed to be replaced by more modern foods. See also the many conflicts between the Fascists and the Catholic Church.

r2_pilot 4y ago

The symbology isn't far from the mark, either, with the Senate seal consisting of "A red liberty cap above the shield and crossed fasces below the shield represent freedom and authority, respectively.", per Wiki. The Black Iron Prison remains; Rome has yet to fall.

lapcat 4y ago

> America is such a weird country. This is true. It's also one of the largest and most diverse countries in the world, both geographically and demographically. Some might say it's ungovernable, the Disunited States. > big parts of the US closely fit the definition(s) [0] [Following the link] "What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments has been a complicated and highly disputed subject" Difficult to closely fit the definition when there's no clear definition. ;-)

LatteLazy 4y ago
Maybe I would have been better avoiding the "F word" and just calling it very illiberal? :shrugs:
- lapcat 4y ago
  I don't know. It's a spectrum. There are certainly a lot of countries in the world that are a lot worse on that measure.
  - grecy 4y ago
    I’m always fascinated when people compare down. Are you proud your sports team isn’t on the bottom of the ladder? Or would it actually be productive and improve things if you compared up?
    - lapcat 4y ago
      This a straw man. The point here is truth and accuracy. Is the US fascist and "very illiberal"? No, I don't think so. Perhaps "moderately illiberal" would be more accurate. Can the US be improved? Of course! My intention is not to defend the US but to accurately describe it. I don't think fascist is accurate. Above all, the US is large, complicated, and conflicted. Non-Americans like to paint America with a broad brush, but Americans are actually in widespread disagreement about a lot of things.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      >Are you proud your sports team isn’t on the bottom of the ladder? Or would it actually be productive and improve things if you compared up? It seems like it would be productive to be grounded in reality and actually know where you sit on the ladder. You can still look at the top teams and want to be better, but lying and telling the team you are at the bottom isn't helpful.
- unmole 4y ago
  Right, the country with the strongest freedom of speech protections in the world is so illberal.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    That's sort of my point: Excellent freedom of speech (because someone in 1780 thought of that). But you can be gunned down in the street by the police (because some guy in 1780 forgot to explicitly ban that). It's a weird mix no? And the Liberal bits all date back to way before anyone now alive was born (with a few exceptions like gay marriage)
    - yucky 4y ago
      Every year there are around 1,000 people killed in police interactions. Every year around 25 of those cases were people who were unarmed and/or not actively trying to kill the police officer. Now, that is 25 too many for sure. But in a nation of 350 million people, 25 unarmed people killed by cops is sad but statistically a rounding error. Also, most of the time the cops in those cases are rightfully convicted and sent to prison so qualified immunity isn't relevant. That said, there are far too many other police abuses that need to be addressed which are a more significant issue because they affect far more people.
    - unmole 4y ago
      > But you can be gunned down in the street by the police The statistical likelihood of that happening is approximately zero. Extrapolating from this to Fascism is plainly ridiculous.
andromeduck 4y ago
That's a very Euro/Ameri-centric take. Most of the world is much much different especially if you look like you should belong/conform.
- lapcat 4y ago
  Could you please explain this comment in more detail? Because I honestly don't know what it's supposed to mean.

junofan 4y ago

If you read Eco’s essay, you’ll see he holds up America as an example of a country that is not fascist. So I don’t think he’d agree with you.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
He also wrote it 28 years ago. Can a country change that fast and has it are certainly two different questions.
- aidenn0 4y ago
  The seeds were all planted 28 years ago. They just hadn't fully flowered yet.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Not necessarily weight in on if fascists or not. But this point can definitely be true and we even have an example. Germany went from the loss of WW1 to the Wiemar Republican, probably one of the most liberal governments in its day, to Nazi Germany in pretty much a 20 year period.
klyrs 4y ago
America is a weird place. I would evaluate a more specific claim: Trumpism is Fascism, according to Eco's fourteen points: > "The cult of tradition" This point is rather weakly supported, as Trump does not attend any tradition whatsoever. However, his Supreme Court picks are originalists from the Federalist Society, whose purpose is the maintenance of tradition. > "The rejection of modernism" Anti-vax, anti-woke, anti-LGBT. > "The cult of action for action's sake", I don't see this in Trump specifically. The Iraq invasion, certainly, but that's far enough removed from Trumpism that I'll say nah. > "Disagreement is treason" This, 100 times over. Trump has used, if not these exact words, this sentiment towards any sort of criticism especially when it comes from within his own party/cabinet. > "Fear of difference" Mexico. China. Shithole countries. Saying American Congresswomen should "go back where they came from." > "Appeal to a frustrated middle class" Trump's anti-NAFTA stance was widely described as the reason that he was the economically rational choice for many voters who were displaced from the middle class when manufacturing jobs were exported by that agreement. > "Obsession with a plot" QAnon. > "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" Trump was curiously less hawkish than recent presidents; he gets a pass here. > "Contempt for the weak" Trump wears this on his sleeve and proclaims love, literally love for authoritarian leaders he sees as strong. > "Everybody is educated to become a hero" This point is somewhat weak; but his attack on John McCain stands out: "I like people who weren't captured" > "Machismo" Yes. From "grab 'em by the pussy" to sexualizing his own daughter to his "low energy" comments about his political opponents; there are too many examples to list. > "Selective populism" This is a common theme for Trump -- he frequently equates his opinion with the will of the people, and derides anybody who disagrees with him as un-American. > "Newspeak" Calling this "newspeak" is contentious; Eco's point was about promoting an impoverished vocabulary. The Republican party has long relied on "definitions," or linguistic originalism, to argue against social progress; specifically against gay marriage and trans rights. By my count, that's 9.5/14. Trumpism is more fascist than not, by Eco's definition. Hitler was bent on world domination, which is the principle axis that Trumpism fails Eco's test. That Trump was elected points to the popularity of fascism in the US. It isn't a monoculture, America is not just fascist, but concerns about fascism are well-justified.

ttfkam 4y ago

Racism in the US has always just been fascism that mostly missed white folks. See: Post-Reconstruction such as the Wilmington insurrection

Georgelemental 4y ago

I don't think Umberto's points 1 and 2 match historical reality. The only political movement to ever call itself "fascist" was Italian Fascism, and Mussolini's comrades were not wedded to tradition and divorced from modernity. For example, they ran a campaign against pasta, because pasta was an "outdated tradition" and needed to be replaced by more modern foods. See also the many conflicts between the Fascists and the Catholic Church.