4 ms·

Very often if you diff "poor successful immigrant" stories to the stories of poor people who grew up in the same city, the key difference was they relied on bon

by pydry 4y ago

Very often if you diff "poor successful immigrant" stories to the stories of poor people who grew up in the same city, the key difference was they relied on bonds of trust between them and other immigrants from their country that helped give them a leg up. I was pretty shocked to discover that one of my friends (2nd gen asian immigrant in amsterdam) had parents who even tapped large interest free loans, and that the community largely expected this kind of help to be given freely. >I find it off for poverty-advocates to get indignant when poverty education comes up Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective (by design, pretty much), and is almost universally used by banks and politicians fronting for banks to try and get the heat off their backs and let them keep raking in profits unimpeded. Stuff like interest rate caps and banning payday lending, on the other hand, is very effective but impedes profits. The goal of corporate lobbyists is to present solutions (usually faux) that appear genuine but don't impede profits.

kortilla 4y ago
Banks don’t conduct payday loans and make very little from the poor. The payday loan industry != banking industry.
xyzelement 4y ago
// Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective Hmm, the argument I always hear is "the poor don't need to be taught, they need (some short term thing that won't scale)" If you want to argue the effectiveness of various education methods, I am not down to that level of nuance. Obviously if the education is ineffective, that's a problem, it's still necessary.
bko 4y ago
Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. And if the benefits of networks based on country of origin were so powerful you'd expect places with a large percent of South American or Caribbean countries to be wealthy. But if you look at small Haitian or Dominican you don't see the same kind of upward mobility compared to asian neighborhoods.
- pydry 4y ago
  >Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. Are you equating the economic potential of being able to tap a large interest free loan from your community and having an equally poor sibling?
  - bko 4y ago
    I'm an immigrant to the US. My parents had a network of people from the same country (European). It was a good resource of friends and babysitting for my parents, but i never heard of anyone giving large interest free loans to a poor stranger just because they came from the same country. But maybe that's the norm for asian communities. Btw i wouldn't discount free childcare and is honestly worth more than an interest free loan. If you can help share childcare you can work many more hours
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Forget the name for it, but there is community based loan concept where everyone pitches in a little money to give one individual a loan based on luck of the draw with the pretext that in future prior past contributors have better odds of winning. Needless to say, frequently is a scam. EDIT: Here are examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+loan+club https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+...
Bootvis 4y ago
In the case of the Netherlands, interest rate caps are already in place and payday loans don't exist. Furthermore, it's relatively easy to get help (but not fun) when you're bankrupt and to get out of this bankruptcy with a clean sheet after 5 years. Currently there is a law in the works vetted by the House of Representative to reduce this period.
- pydry 4y ago
  Perhaps not but the Netherlands has ridiculous levels of wealth inequality. On paper it's worse than the US.
  - Bootvis 4y ago
    You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? Because those statistics you hint at are misleading at best.
    - dangwhy 4y ago
      > You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? How does merely visiting Netherlands tell a person that inequality stats are misleading ?
      - Bootvis 4y ago
        You walk around and see how people live and that the difference between the worst neighborhoods is much smaller than the US or even France. Another data point is that you will also see relatively little homeless people (compared to San Francisco for example).
    - dstick 4y ago
      Well it's sorta true, but the important difference is that the bottom poverty line is higher than in the US, and we do have better social security. Still, the gap is growing. Though recent changes in real-estate legislation are putting a stop to that. Yes, there are the mega rich, entrepreneurs and whatnot. Like it or not, they do participate in society in a way that moves the needle. Means for the slightly-better-off middle class to exploit the lower class through rent are being thwarted, thankfully. They just allow one half of the population to exploit the other half without providing any tangible benefit in return. Source: I'm born in, and living in, the Netherlands.
O__________O 4y ago
As a single counter experience, I have repeatedly witnessed established immigrants exploit new immigrants from the same cultural backgrounds. Yes, some people get lucky and find meaningfully help, but others don’t.
- pydry 4y ago
  Of course. Rags to riches and "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps" anecdotes are mired in survivorship bias almost by definition.
troupe 4y ago
Some of the organizations I've seen in the US to provide "life coaching" for people in poverty are trying to create those types of relationships. Their logic is that the culture surrounding people in poverty tends to make it harder to do the types of things that would help them get out of poverty.

by pydry 4y ago

kortilla 4y ago

Banks don’t conduct payday loans and make very little from the poor. The payday loan industry != banking industry.

xyzelement 4y ago

// Yeah, coz it's well known to be ineffective Hmm, the argument I always hear is "the poor don't need to be taught, they need (some short term thing that won't scale)" If you want to argue the effectiveness of various education methods, I am not down to that level of nuance. Obviously if the education is ineffective, that's a problem, it's still necessary.

bko 4y ago

Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. And if the benefits of networks based on country of origin were so powerful you'd expect places with a large percent of South American or Caribbean countries to be wealthy. But if you look at small Haitian or Dominican you don't see the same kind of upward mobility compared to asian neighborhoods.

pydry 4y ago
>Lower socioeconomic class stay in the neighborhood that they grew up in and are much more likely to be close to parents and siblings. This is a much stronger network than some immigrant community of strangers based on country of origin. Are you equating the economic potential of being able to tap a large interest free loan from your community and having an equally poor sibling?
- bko 4y ago
  I'm an immigrant to the US. My parents had a network of people from the same country (European). It was a good resource of friends and babysitting for my parents, but i never heard of anyone giving large interest free loans to a poor stranger just because they came from the same country. But maybe that's the norm for asian communities. Btw i wouldn't discount free childcare and is honestly worth more than an interest free loan. If you can help share childcare you can work many more hours
  - O__________O 4y ago
    Forget the name for it, but there is community based loan concept where everyone pitches in a little money to give one individual a loan based on luck of the draw with the pretext that in future prior past contributors have better odds of winning. Needless to say, frequently is a scam. EDIT: Here are examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+loan+club https://www.google.com/search?q=site:wikipedia.org+informal+...

Bootvis 4y ago

In the case of the Netherlands, interest rate caps are already in place and payday loans don't exist. Furthermore, it's relatively easy to get help (but not fun) when you're bankrupt and to get out of this bankruptcy with a clean sheet after 5 years. Currently there is a law in the works vetted by the House of Representative to reduce this period.

pydry 4y ago
Perhaps not but the Netherlands has ridiculous levels of wealth inequality. On paper it's worse than the US.
- Bootvis 4y ago
  You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? Because those statistics you hint at are misleading at best.
  - dangwhy 4y ago
    > You have never been to the Netherlands, have you? How does merely visiting Netherlands tell a person that inequality stats are misleading ?
    - Bootvis 4y ago
      You walk around and see how people live and that the difference between the worst neighborhoods is much smaller than the US or even France. Another data point is that you will also see relatively little homeless people (compared to San Francisco for example).
  - dstick 4y ago
    Well it's sorta true, but the important difference is that the bottom poverty line is higher than in the US, and we do have better social security. Still, the gap is growing. Though recent changes in real-estate legislation are putting a stop to that. Yes, there are the mega rich, entrepreneurs and whatnot. Like it or not, they do participate in society in a way that moves the needle. Means for the slightly-better-off middle class to exploit the lower class through rent are being thwarted, thankfully. They just allow one half of the population to exploit the other half without providing any tangible benefit in return. Source: I'm born in, and living in, the Netherlands.

O__________O 4y ago

As a single counter experience, I have repeatedly witnessed established immigrants exploit new immigrants from the same cultural backgrounds. Yes, some people get lucky and find meaningfully help, but others don’t.

pydry 4y ago
Of course. Rags to riches and "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps" anecdotes are mired in survivorship bias almost by definition.

troupe 4y ago

Some of the organizations I've seen in the US to provide "life coaching" for people in poverty are trying to create those types of relationships. Their logic is that the culture surrounding people in poverty tends to make it harder to do the types of things that would help them get out of poverty.